Slavery Reparations.
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
Thanks for the link.
When I was a teenager I read a fair bit about the 'white slave trade' and, in particular, the Barbary Coast pirates. It seems to have been ignored by modern historians despite it going on into the 19thC.
An estimated 3 million slaves were taken by Tartar raids in Poland, Russia and, in particular, the Ukraine between the start of 15th century and end of the 18th century.When I was a teenager I read a fair bit about the 'white slave trade' and, in particular, the Barbary Coast pirates. It seems to have been ignored by modern historians despite it going on into the 19thC.
So yes the Transatlantic slave trade was far from unique.
Interesting article here related to this topic.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6978591...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6978591...
markcoznottz said:
Penelope Stopit said:
Derek Smith said:
They might have a case if there was any money left in Germany at the end of the war, but it was bankrupt. Fair enough, Krupp might, you know, just might, have had some stashed away somewhere. I remember my father, who had a German friend just after the war, and was of a mind to forgive but not forget, was more than a little miffed at the state funeral of an arms manufacturer who had used slave labour, and made fabulous sums out of it. Whilst he was, supposedly, reduced to poverty at the end of the war, the Americans felt that reparations should be paid to him. Unbelievable. He was a war criminal but was given free money to start his factories again. I wonder if they apologised for bombing them.
Krupp no doubt felt he was entitled to the money, but didn't think that many/most of the slaves in his factories deserved a share. So he kept it all to himself.
You can't right wrongs with money. As you suggest, history has a lot in it about wrongs committed by one group against another. However, the persons involved in crime should be punished according to the law. Their kids, as long as they were not complicit, should be allowed to go about their business unaffected.
Germany as a country may well have been broke after World War II (I haven't studied this)Krupp no doubt felt he was entitled to the money, but didn't think that many/most of the slaves in his factories deserved a share. So he kept it all to himself.
You can't right wrongs with money. As you suggest, history has a lot in it about wrongs committed by one group against another. However, the persons involved in crime should be punished according to the law. Their kids, as long as they were not complicit, should be allowed to go about their business unaffected.
What about those German companies that made vast ammounts of money during the war?
Here is a quick read https://listverse.com/2013/10/24/10-big-business-n...
I have been meaning to delve deeper into BMW's dealings, several years ago I read about BMW being able to ride any storm
Greece is now officially pushing for reparations and rightly so https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/21/gree...
It is far too easy for those that live in countries that weren't occupied by the Nazi's to mention "the past is the past, lets move on"
This is the problem - Ignorance plays its part
Who paid to rebuild Germany?
Two days ago someone mentioned Marshall to me but like myself didn't know where the money came from
I didn't know about the VW factory
Liokault said:
Penelope Stopit said:
I have been meaning to delve deeper into BMW's dealings, several years ago I read about BMW being able to ride any storm
If you go to the BMW museam in Munich, there is a 100 years of BMW exhibit. The guide will talk you proudly through The years until 1939, then there’s a bit of a gap where he coughs and skips to 1945...Perhaps it would be better to leave no gaps
Liokault said:
If you go to the BMW museum in Munich, there is a 100 years of BMW exhibit. The guide will talk you proudly through The years until 1939, then there’s a bit of a gap where he coughs and skips to 1945...
Ditto the Mercedes museum in Stuttgart. Was really looking forwards to seeing the WW2 stuff.
Truly a case of "don't mention ze war"
55palfers said:
Liokault said:
If you go to the BMW museum in Munich, there is a 100 years of BMW exhibit. The guide will talk you proudly through The years until 1939, then there’s a bit of a gap where he coughs and skips to 1945...
Ditto the Mercedes museum in Stuttgart. Was really looking forwards to seeing the WW2 stuff.
Truly a case of "don't mention ze war"
An old piece, but I certainly found it an interesting read on the teaching of history in German schools. A good friend of mine (pen pal at the time) was traumatised when he realised what his country had done in WW2. Sadly he was so ashamed that he destroyed the WW2 memories that his grandfather had kept from his army service
At the age of 11 he was carefree and oblivious to what had happened, aged 12 he was taught the 'dark secret' and flipped out. His grandfather was simply a soldier / photographer fighting for his country, however his grandson then identified him as a Nazi rather than a German man in the army. Now he is older he regrets burning the uniform, destroying the badges / medals / photos etc. It was especially sad as it damaged the grandfather-grandson relationship at a time when the bond should have been growing.
Derek Smith said:
Penelope Stopit said:
Derek Smith said:
They might have a case if there was any money left in Germany at the end of the war, but it was bankrupt. Fair enough, Krupp might, you know, just might, have had some stashed away somewhere. I remember my father, who had a German friend just after the war, and was of a mind to forgive but not forget, was more than a little miffed at the state funeral of an arms manufacturer who had used slave labour, and made fabulous sums out of it. Whilst he was, supposedly, reduced to poverty at the end of the war, the Americans felt that reparations should be paid to him. Unbelievable. He was a war criminal but was given free money to start his factories again. I wonder if they apologised for bombing them.
Krupp no doubt felt he was entitled to the money, but didn't think that many/most of the slaves in his factories deserved a share. So he kept it all to himself.
You can't right wrongs with money. As you suggest, history has a lot in it about wrongs committed by one group against another. However, the persons involved in crime should be punished according to the law. Their kids, as long as they were not complicit, should be allowed to go about their business unaffected.
Germany as a country may well have been broke after World War II (I haven't studied this)Krupp no doubt felt he was entitled to the money, but didn't think that many/most of the slaves in his factories deserved a share. So he kept it all to himself.
You can't right wrongs with money. As you suggest, history has a lot in it about wrongs committed by one group against another. However, the persons involved in crime should be punished according to the law. Their kids, as long as they were not complicit, should be allowed to go about their business unaffected.
What about those German companies that made vast ammounts of money during the war?
Here is a quick read https://listverse.com/2013/10/24/10-big-business-n...
I have been meaning to delve deeper into BMW's dealings, several years ago I read about BMW being able to ride any storm
Greece is now officially pushing for reparations and rightly so https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/21/gree...
It is far too easy for those that live in countries that weren't occupied by the Nazi's to mention "the past is the past, lets move on"
This is the problem - Ignorance plays its part
Who paid to rebuild Germany?
He had a German friend about 8 years after the war. He was one to move on, although forgetting was not on the cards for him. He damaged a Messerschmitt in the later years of the war and the pilot bailed out. They became friendly and exchanged Christmas cards for many years afterwards.
Given that he lost a lot of family, and nigh on 7 years of his life to the war, I don’t think it was too easy for him to move on. I’ll go with him and say that those who fought for their country on both sides should not be penalised for doing so. Those responsible for the pogrom and slave labour should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law of course. That goes without saying.
As I said, my father was infuriated with the Krupp state funeral. He was, thankfully, unaware, as far as I know, that he’d been given money by the Yanks.
If the perpetuators are dead, then there’s no point in bearing a grudge. Those who focus on historic wrongs are likely to repeat them, as we have seen in a part of the UK.
If it is easy to move on, why do so many people fail to do so?
What many of us can easily overlook is the damage caused by some countries to other countries in recent times, for example, when the invaders of countries not only occupy them but steal their wealth. Live's can't be replaced but wealth can be
Baby Shark doo doo doo doo said:
55palfers said:
Liokault said:
If you go to the BMW museum in Munich, there is a 100 years of BMW exhibit. The guide will talk you proudly through The years until 1939, then there’s a bit of a gap where he coughs and skips to 1945...
Ditto the Mercedes museum in Stuttgart. Was really looking forwards to seeing the WW2 stuff.
Truly a case of "don't mention ze war"
An old piece, but I certainly found it an interesting read on the teaching of history in German schools. A good friend of mine (pen pal at the time) was traumatised when he realised what his country had done in WW2. Sadly he was so ashamed that he destroyed the WW2 memories that his grandfather had kept from his army service
At the age of 11 he was carefree and oblivious to what had happened, aged 12 he was taught the 'dark secret' and flipped out. His grandfather was simply a soldier / photographer fighting for his country, however his grandson then identified him as a Nazi rather than a German man in the army. Now he is older he regrets burning the uniform, destroying the badges / medals / photos etc. It was especially sad as it damaged the grandfather-grandson relationship at a time when the bond should have been growing.
55palfers said:
Liokault said:
If you go to the BMW museum in Munich, there is a 100 years of BMW exhibit. The guide will talk you proudly through The years until 1939, then there’s a bit of a gap where he coughs and skips to 1945...
Ditto the Mercedes museum in Stuttgart. Was really looking forwards to seeing the WW2 stuff.
Truly a case of "don't mention ze war"
I had always thought the (essentially) Soviet line that West Germany was the continuation of the Nazi state utterly absurd. But, a couple of news stories this year jolted me a little . . . firstly, news that Germany is still paying pensions to certain Nazi collaborators in Belgium, Holland, and other European countries (and, no doubt stemming from the notorious German chaotic inefficiency, Federal authorities are "unable to identify them").
And then that Brunhilde Pomsel, Goebbels' personal secretary from 1942 until 1945, was re-employed after the war by the German state broadcaster. Interesting CV she would have brought in . . . .
PS My grandfather was a slave. Commissioned Master-at-Arms, Royal Navy. Captured by the Japanese on Christmas Day 1941. Transferred to Japan September 1942 and put to work - factories and places mentioned in his affidavit to the War Crimes Tribunal include the Asano Dock Company and Mitsubishi. The affidavit is pretty harrowing . . . I read excerpts (selected as setting out the narrative whilst being appropriate to a mixed audience) at a Remembrance event last year and could barely get through it emotionally. (For the sake of balance, at the end the affidavit names two Japanese individuals " . . (Sergeant) Masaru Mikawa and Ushimatsu Kudo . . were very helpful in obtaining provisions for us".)
And then that Brunhilde Pomsel, Goebbels' personal secretary from 1942 until 1945, was re-employed after the war by the German state broadcaster. Interesting CV she would have brought in . . . .
PS My grandfather was a slave. Commissioned Master-at-Arms, Royal Navy. Captured by the Japanese on Christmas Day 1941. Transferred to Japan September 1942 and put to work - factories and places mentioned in his affidavit to the War Crimes Tribunal include the Asano Dock Company and Mitsubishi. The affidavit is pretty harrowing . . . I read excerpts (selected as setting out the narrative whilst being appropriate to a mixed audience) at a Remembrance event last year and could barely get through it emotionally. (For the sake of balance, at the end the affidavit names two Japanese individuals " . . (Sergeant) Masaru Mikawa and Ushimatsu Kudo . . were very helpful in obtaining provisions for us".)
Penelope Stopit said:
55palfers said:
Liokault said:
If you go to the BMW museum in Munich, there is a 100 years of BMW exhibit. The guide will talk you proudly through The years until 1939, then there’s a bit of a gap where he coughs and skips to 1945...
Ditto the Mercedes museum in Stuttgart. Was really looking forwards to seeing the WW2 stuff.
Truly a case of "don't mention ze war"
Neonblau said:
Liokault said:
If you go to the BMW museum in Munich, there is a 100 years of BMW exhibit. The guide will talk you proudly through The years until 1939, then there’s a bit of a gap where he coughs and skips to 1945...
The same for Mercedes in Stuttgart. I can remember some ominous gaps and strange narratives around 1910-1920, right from when the Kaiser was building his High Seas Fleet to challenge the Royal Navy's supremacy through to the Treaty of Versailles. To anyone outside Germany it was glaring, for Germans I'm not sure what they make of it.https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/p...
eccles said:
55palfers said:
It's time them Romans coughed up too.
Where do you draw the line? Slavery has gone on for thousands of years, and by many races, colours and creeds.We all probably have ancestors who were slaves at some point if you go back far enough.
Octoposse said:
PS My grandfather was a slave. Commissioned Master-at-Arms, Royal Navy. Captured by the Japanese on Christmas Day 1941. Transferred to Japan September 1942 and put to work - factories and places mentioned in his affidavit to the War Crimes Tribunal include the Asano Dock Company and Mitsubishi. The affidavit is pretty harrowing . . . I read excerpts (selected as setting out the narrative whilst being appropriate to a mixed audience) at a Remembrance event last year and could barely get through it emotionally. (For the sake of balance, at the end the affidavit names two Japanese individuals " . . (Sergeant) Masaru Mikawa and Ushimatsu Kudo . . were very helpful in obtaining provisions for us".)
Technically not a slave. Your grandad and mine, were paid a daily rate, not in cash, but in an account book. 15 Sen a day for NCOs. Mitsubishi would pay the Japanese Army, and that would go to a Japanese accountant, and POWs would draw upon that.As this thread is discussing compensation, in 1952, ex-POWs received £76 compensation.
£25 of this came from the Treaty of San Francisco, where the Japanese (at their insistance) inserted a clause to compensate Allied POWs who had suffered, paid for by transfer of all Japanese assets in Axis and Neutral nations to the Red Cross. The UK's share of that came to £1.7m. The UK government put in a further £48 per POW and internee, paid for from seized Japanese assets in the UK. £3 per POW came from Thailand, after they sold the Burma-Siam railway. So POWs got more than Civilian Internees. In 2018 £, this is about £2600.
In 2000, all FEPOWS and Estates, became entitled to an ex-gratia payment of £10,000.
Whether £76 or £10,000 is sufficient or not enough, is another matter.
R Mutt said:
Can't wait fir the italians to pay up, I must be owed a fortune from them pesky romansSome of my ancestors were extremely enthusiastic slavers but eventually grew out of it. I remember reading one of their letters describing with delight that freeing them meant they no longer had to feed or house them. All they had to do was pay them.
Some other ancestors were slaves. I can't say I feel the pain in my bones.
It's not as if Glasgow are dropping bags of cash off at every door in Africa, but why not spend that money trying to combat modern slavery rather than 'raising awareness?' There's still plenty of it going on in places like Mali. That would be truly meaningful.
Some other ancestors were slaves. I can't say I feel the pain in my bones.
It's not as if Glasgow are dropping bags of cash off at every door in Africa, but why not spend that money trying to combat modern slavery rather than 'raising awareness?' There's still plenty of it going on in places like Mali. That would be truly meaningful.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff