Grammar Schools

[turbobloke]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The advance notice makes no difference. You cannot drag a school to the next level with 3 days notice of an inspection. If inspectors were that easily fooled, there would be no point in having them at all.

It's typically half a day at the mo iirc. Notification call around midday / inspection starts the next morning. If the school office is busy and calls don't get through to the HT for some reason, the inspectors turn up anyway.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

turbobloke said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The advance notice makes no difference. You cannot drag a school to the next level with 3 days notice of an inspection. If inspectors were that easily fooled, there would be no point in having them at all.

It's typically half a day at the mo iirc. Notification call around midday / inspection starts the next morning. If the school office is busy and calls don't get through to the HT for some reason, the inspectors turn up anyway.

It was 3 working days in my days as a parent governor. Even that was tight. I was parent governor overseeing finance (£6m budget) and had to be on had to answer any questions the inspectors needed to ask. Given that my role was voluntary and I had to organise cover at work, an ad hoc inspection would have been a complete non starter,

I just think that people who suggest ad hoc inspections are completely ignorant of the realities involved.

[CoolHands]

Do illegal islamic and jewish schools count as selective?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36302054

[babatunde]

Grammer schools..............

Thing is like it or not more successful as in richer parents will always play the system to ensure that their kids get the best possible education. Whatever measure are introduced to close that gap will always fail simply because they will put in the effort to provide the best for their children, be it by moving to catchment areas or preping them for exams. It's part of why they are successful in life, basically success breed success, call it nature or nuture.

There will never ever be a level playing field in education. all the system can do play around the edges.

[Efbe]

babatunde said:

Grammer schools..............

Thing is like it or not more successful as in richer parents will always play the system to ensure that their kids get the best possible education. Whatever measure are introduced to close that gap will always fail simply because they will put in the effort to provide the best for their children, be it by moving to catchment areas or preping them for exams. It's part of why they are successful in life, basically success breed success, call it nature or nuture.

There will never ever be a level playing field in education. all the system can do play around the edges.

Well that's perfectly fine. It is what Private schools are for.
My reading of this situation, as I have pointed out several times, is that grammar schools are subsidising rich parents.

[RicksAlfas]

Efbe said:

Well that's perfectly fine. It is what Private schools are for.
My reading of this situation, as I have pointed out several times, is that grammar schools are subsidising rich parents.

I can assure you that is not the case. A visit to our local grammar school's open day or parents evening would soon convince you otherwise.
There are people from all walks of life there. The only thing they have in common is they wanted their children to sit the 11+.

In our area (West Yorkshire) private school fees have gone up enormously since I was at school in the 1980s. Out of proportion to incomes. This has kept more kids out of private schools and increased the desire to take the 11+. In turn this has raised standards in the 11+ schools, and lowered it in the private schools. Private schools have a break even point. Say it's 1,000 pupils. If they don't hit this, their sums don't add up. So to ensure they have at least 1,000 pupils, they drop standards. They have no choice. So it's a strange spiral. The end result is some of the 11+ schools are doing as well, or better than the £12,000 a year private schools in exam results and league tables. Sure, they don't have the beautiful facilities, but most people would have to really think hard if £12,000 a year is worth it for a smart swimming pool.

[tankplanker]

Efbe said:

Students are streamlined into different sets. A decent size comp will have 5 sets per year group per subject.
So the band will only be 20%

At my kids' secondary school they recently scrapped ability based sets and instead put in place mixed ability sets where it was possible, even for those in years 10 and 11. The rational was that the more able students would help the less able students. All that does is bring the pace of the lesson down to the average point in the class, too slow for those at the top and too fast for those at the bottom so the majority of kids in the class suffer. If my kids were not in year 11 I'd have moved them to a different school but as they are half way through their GCSE it would be too disruptive and counter productive at this point to move them.

The school seemingly doesn't care about the students that are either going to achieve above a C or could never achieve a C in the timeframe allowed for a GCSE as all the focus is on that middle boundary for far too many schools as they are focused on the A-C percentage for that year. If Grammar Schools mean that instead of dragging everybody towards mediocrity we actually push the brightest towards achieving more then I'm all for them. The only proviso I would like to see added is that your place within a Grammar School can be rescinded if your academic or behavioural standards fall below an agreed level. Otherwise it makes the late entry into Grammar Schools pointless as there will be so few places available.

[turbobloke]

The Ofsted research cited several times earlier in this thread included many schools which have setting in place. In too many instances, very able pupils are still failed by these non-selective schools with setting, albeit a bit less severely than with mixed ability teaching. Some schools visited by Ofsted didn't know who their very able pupils were. As also mentioned previously, non-selective schools have had 40 years to get it right for their very able pupils.

Time's up.

[Hol]

RicksAlfas said:

Efbe said:

Well that's perfectly fine. It is what Private schools are for.
My reading of this situation, as I have pointed out several times, is that grammar schools are subsidising rich parents.

I can assure you that is not the case. A visit to our local grammar school's open day or parents evening would soon convince you otherwise.
There are people from all walks of life there. The only thing they have in common is they wanted their children to sit the 11+.

What ARE you on thinking? EFbe isn't interested in facts, or real life examples.



Now, if you were a politically motivated journalist with no kids of your own, no true source and you wrote down that grammar school placements were actually chosen 5x generations earlier AND the 11plus is all pretend - then you'd have his full support.

[Hol]

^^ BTW. My experience of Grammar School parents and children is the same - all walks of life.

[turbobloke]

From the Conservative manifesto:

"We will lift the ban on the establishment of selective schools, subject to conditions, such as allowing pupils to join at other ages as well as eleven."

[Hayek]

turbobloke said:

From the Conservative manifesto:

"We will lift the ban on the establishment of selective schools, subject to conditions, such as allowing pupils to join at other ages as well as eleven."

Good, although I'll still believe it when I see it.

[CoolHands]

yay more mentally-ill faith schools is just what we need! It's working so well for the world at the moment

[SilverSixer]

Hayek said:

turbobloke said:

From the Conservative manifesto:

"We will lift the ban on the establishment of selective schools, subject to conditions, such as allowing pupils to join at other ages as well as eleven."

Good, although I'll still believe it when I see it.

My local Grammar School, up until last year when it decided off its own bat to stop entrance at 13 due to overcrowding complications, always allowed entry at both 11 and 13, and in other years on an ad hoc basis. This is nothing new.

[sidicks]

SilverSixer said:

My local Grammar School, up until last year when it decided off its own bat to stop entrance at 13 due to overcrowding complications, always allowed entry at both 11 and 13, and in other years on an ad hoc basis. This is nothing new.

Isn't the proposal about an explicit requirement for access at 11 and 13 (not reversing an existing constraint). So it is new?

[Hayek]

SilverSixer said:

Hayek said:

turbobloke said:

From the Conservative manifesto:

"We will lift the ban on the establishment of selective schools, subject to conditions, such as allowing pupils to join at other ages as well as eleven."

Good, although I'll still believe it when I see it.

My local Grammar School, up until last year when it decided off its own bat to stop entrance at 13 due to overcrowding complications, always allowed entry at both 11 and 13, and in other years on an ad hoc basis. This is nothing new.

Lifting the ban on the establishment of selective schools is something new as far as I'm aware. I have no local Grammar school, the nearest is probably around 90mins drive away in Buckinghamshire.

[GreatGranny]

SilverSixer said:

My local Grammar School, up until last year when it decided off its own bat to stop entrance at 13 due to overcrowding complications, always allowed entry at both 11 and 13, and in other years on an ad hoc basis. This is nothing new.

Was just going to say this.

My local grammars (girls and boys) have always done this at years 8 & 9.

My eldest is in year 12 of the comp and my middle is in year 9 of the girls grammar (selective academy).

Both are doing well and years 12 & 13 (6th form) are combined between the grammars and comp anyway dependent on subjects taken.

It does help that the comp is an very good school despite being in a Lincolnshire :-)

There is also the choice of private in Lincoln which is for the parents with children who are "not clever enough to pass the 11+ but are too snobby to send their kids to state school" :-) so I've heard.

[wiggy001]

sidicks said:

SilverSixer said:

My local Grammar School, up until last year when it decided off its own bat to stop entrance at 13 due to overcrowding complications, always allowed entry at both 11 and 13, and in other years on an ad hoc basis. This is nothing new.

Isn't the proposal about an explicit requirement for access at 11 and 13 (not reversing an existing constraint). So it is new?

I've always struggled to understand this. I went to a Grammar in the 1990s - surely if the places are filled at 11 there aren't going to be any places for 13 year olds unless kids are leaving the school? I get that kids may join for the 6th form as not all current students will stay on for 6th form, freeing up spaces.

What am I missing?

[SilverSixer]

wiggy001 said:

sidicks said:

SilverSixer said:

My local Grammar School, up until last year when it decided off its own bat to stop entrance at 13 due to overcrowding complications, always allowed entry at both 11 and 13, and in other years on an ad hoc basis. This is nothing new.

Isn't the proposal about an explicit requirement for access at 11 and 13 (not reversing an existing constraint). So it is new?

I've always struggled to understand this. I went to a Grammar in the 1990s - surely if the places are filled at 11 there aren't going to be any places for 13 year olds unless kids are leaving the school? I get that kids may join for the 6th form as not all current students will stay on for 6th form, freeing up spaces.

What am I missing?

Nothing. Some kids get "asked" to leave our local grammar if they're not performing, others don't get on with the place and leave for other schools, often private. Places get freed up every now and again.

Under current legislation, new grammars are allowed under certain circumstances - officially as extensions of existing schools, but as they can be on new sites and in different towns, it's academic. Maidenhead are trying to do this with a school over the county boundary in High Wycombe I believe.

Edited by SilverSixer on Friday 19th May 10:53

[768]

I joined a grammar at 13. Over 20 years ago.