Meanwhile in Poland

[anonymous-user]

My bad- same loons, wrong year, apols.

[jjlynn27]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

In the last photo, I am somehow failing to see the "faces covered" in the crowd.

It is easy enough to find a photo of someone looking angry when they are speaking passionately. It does look unpleasant but we have no idea what he was actually saying at the time.

The first photo is clearly enhanced in an attempt to emphasise a similarity between this march and image we have of the Nazi Nuremberg rallies.

Another image from the day. One you are unlikely to see printed in the left leaning press.


East European countries and Russia have a general distrust of non-Europeans in my experience, both from visiting and from long conversations with friends and acquaintances from Russia, Czech Republic, Poland, Romania.
As said above, they don't like the look of how things appear to be working out in the west, yet those that reside here accept the way things are and don't try to change them.

Finding a comfortable balance between the extremes of the far right/fascism and the far left/Marxism is not going to be easy for any country that has a recent memory of the cruelty and oppression suffered under both of these extremes.
There are likely to be knee jerk reactions to seeing similarities with either of those ideologies.

You should write for Infowars.

[Mandat]

Breadvan72 said:

My bad- same loons, wrong year, apols.

Don't worry. As it's an annual event, it's likely that the events in the news report repeat themselves evey year to a lesser or greater extent.

[anonymous-user]

This suggests that they do -


http://www.dw.com/en/independence-day-polands-nati...

[anonymous-user]

Another analysis here - this rally is apparently a magnet for far right loons from all various places, which is sad for Poles who just want to celebrate their national day.

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2017/1110/I...

[Digga]

Breadvan72 said:

sad for Poles who just want to celebrate their national day.

Agreed. To an extent, Poland is a victim of it's recent history. Sure, most people are extremely anti-Nazi and have a very pragmatic view of Nazism and what effect it had on their country, but on the other hand, their time behind the iron curtain did not best prepare them for the multi-cultural reality of life in the west/Western Europe. That sort of change is best handles gradually.

[anonymous-user]

Poland has been mostly a success story since the fall of the Soviet Empire, quickly adapting to capitalism and so on, but there's a remaining strain of atavism, as demonstrated by these marches, and the current government is a dodgy bunch.

[anonymous-user]

I add that Poland suffers from left behind ism even more than, say, the UK does. Warsaw and Krakow and so forth are developed and modern and wealthy, but the countryside is still traditional and a bit poor.

[jurbie]

I think this shows other side of EU migration issues in that the bright ones have all gone abroad leaving the knuckledraggers behind who then end up voting in a party like PiS.

I've been told that back in the 70's Warsaw was full of Muslims as there were some very close ties with the middle east. After Saddam Hussain was deposed Poland had quite a big role in dismantling the Iraqi chemical facilities because it was Polish expertise that built most of them.

[topgunkos]

jurbie said:

I think this shows other side of EU migration issues in that the bright ones have all gone abroad leaving the knuckledraggers behind who then end up voting in a party like PiS.

I've been told that back in the 70's Warsaw was full of Muslims as there were some very close ties with the middle east. After Saddam Hussain was deposed Poland had quite a big role in dismantling the Iraqi chemical facilities because it was Polish expertise that built most of them.

It's actually the opposite, most Poles who left where ones who couldn't make the cut here in the super-competitve early-capitalist market. Most Poles in the EU and UK are from smaller cities and rural areas.

[anonymous-user]

Poland before WW2 was a welcoming place for Jews, who were protected by edicts of King Casimir the Great and others. Some anti-semitism emerged in the WW2 era, with some Poles helping the Nazis exterminate the Polish Jewish population, although many Poles also helped and rescued Jews.

[anonymous-user]

topgunkos said:

It's actually the opposite, most Poles who left where ones who couldn't make the cut here in the super-competitve early-capitalist market. Most Poles in the EU and UK are from smaller cities and rural areas.

The Poles I've met in the UK range from investment bankers and architects through entrepreneurial builders to the stereotypical cappucino makers.

[topgunkos]

Breadvan72 said:

Poland before WW2 was a welcoming place for Jews, who were protected by edicts of King Casimir the Great and others. Some anti-semitism emerged in the WW2 era, with some Poles helping the Nazis exterminate the Polish Jewish population, although many Poles also helped and rescued Jews.

True, there was a reason the Jewish population was so large in Poland, they were welcome for a long period of time.

[Goaty Bill 2]

jjlynn27 said:

You should write for Infowars.

And there it is.
I post an opposing view and now I am somehow supporting the fascists?
Why not just call me one and be done with it?

After all, once you've applied your label, you can justifiably say or do anything you want to me and feel justified. That's how it works isn't it?

I often disagree with you, irrespective of whether I bother to say it, but I don't generally presume you to be a blind ideologue.

My point, because it appears that you have missed it completely, is that I have seen numerous reports on this over the last couple of days, and what I notice most is the left wing press consistently trying to make 'National Independence Day' into 'Nationalist Day'. That in no way implies support of the moronic thug element of the extreme right, nor a denial of their existence at the event.

What it does imply is a deep distrust of any media outlet that tries to make a political point, and to stir up dissension with one-sided reporting.

Infowars indeed.

topgunkos said:

I was there on Saturday as a spectator and watched the march. There is some slightly disingenuous reporting going on claiming it was 60,000 nazis marching through Warsaw. It was more like 1-2000 that actually where exhibiting neo-nazi and white power symbols. The problem is that that is 1-2000 too many people and the fact that the organisers turn a blind eye and seem to welcome them.

Poland is in a very similar situation to the US with Trump in that most educated wealthy people living in the larger cities are completely out of touch with your average poor rural Pole who laps up the populist right-wing rhetoric of the current party.

Very much my understanding from having spoken to Polish friends and extended family who have spoken to their friends and family in Warsaw.

[83HP]

topgunkos said:

True, there was a reason the Jewish population was so large in Poland, they were welcome for a long period of time.

The tensions were always there though unfortunately from what my grandmother told me when living in Lwów

[BlackLabel]

The Poland-EU war of words continue. Tusk once again seems to be using his position in the EU to have a go at his opponents back home.

Poland fury over 'attack' by EU's Tusk

Beeb said:

In a tweet in Polish on Sunday, Mr Tusk. a centre-right liberal, said: "Alarm! Severe dispute with Ukraine, isolation within the European Union, departure from the rule of law and judicial independence, attack on the nongovernmental sector and free media. Is this a Law and Justice strategy or a Kremlin plan? Too similar to sleep peacefully."
Last week the European Parliament adopted a resolution highly critical of the PiS government's policies.
Mr Tusk's reference to the Kremlin appeared to link PiS to alleged Russian interference in EU countries and Ukraine.

Edited by BlackLabel on Monday 20th November 21:36

[Goaty Bill 2]

BlackLabel said:

...Mr. Tusk...

glupia ropucha

[Frougal_Mcdougal]

Spent the last week in Poland for work just after these events and it was still a big deal in the media on panel shows etc.

Being black British I experienced overt racism for the first time in my adult life; twice in one week. Couldn’t say for sure if both are connected but I’ve spent an average of 3months a yr out there for the past four often you “feel” things below the surface but this was bad.

Made me feel even more proud to be British; generally tolerant and accepting of differences as a country. Not much sympathy from me as you can imagine for the “Brexit was a hate crime to Polish people in Britain” media coverage after Last june. Sorry rant over...

[Digga]

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

Made me feel even more proud to be British; generally tolerant and accepting of differences as a country...

Hear hear. There are unsavoury elements of our past empire and trading history, but one positive is the genuine diversity of our nation. Not some forced, politically-correct version of diversity, but a real shared history.

It's not good when a country goes down the cul-de-sac (because it is, morally, culturally and economically a dead-end) that Poland appears to be heading into. However, the dynamic with Tusk using his EU position to try to clobber political opponents back home is toxic and a prime example of how and where an organisation structured as the EU is can go wrong. There is clearly backlash and could be more.

If people feel their voice is not heard or is being ignored, that begin, irrationally, to look around and attack blame to symptoms of the regime, rather than the causes.

[JagLover]

Digga said:

Hear hear. There are unsavoury elements of our past empire and trading history, but one positive is the genuine diversity of our nation. Not some forced, politically-correct version of diversity, but a real shared history.

It's not good when a country goes down the cul-de-sac (because it is, morally, culturally and economically a dead-end) that Poland appears to be heading into. However, the dynamic with Tusk using his EU position to try to clobber political opponents back home is toxic and a prime example of how and where an organisation structured as the EU is can go wrong. There is clearly backlash and could be more.

If people feel their voice is not heard or is being ignored, that begin, irrationally, to look around and attack blame to symptoms of the regime, rather than the causes.

I would suggest though Digga that if the Polish people are to be persuaded of the positive benefits of immigration then forcing a selection of Afghani, Syrian and Albanian Muslims on them is not the best starting point.