Meanwhile in Poland

[Digga]

This is a clear failure of brutalist, monolithic top-down politics. Each country ought to have been given more autonomy to organise their response to the migrant crisis. Similarly, the EU should have been wiser to the fact the crisis was not merely one of refugees, but also of economic migrants.

For many, many reasons, each individual nation has different experience and values in and around these issues and forcing the matter was never going to read well.

[jjlynn27]

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

Spent the last week in Poland for work just after these events and it was still a big deal in the media on panel shows etc.

Being black British I experienced overt racism for the first time in my adult life; twice in one week. Couldn’t say for sure if both are connected but I’ve spent an average of 3months a yr out there for the past four often you “feel” things below the surface but this was bad.

Made me feel even more proud to be British; generally tolerant and accepting of differences as a country. Not much sympathy from me as you can imagine for the “Brexit was a hate crime to Polish people in Britain” media coverage after Last june. Sorry rant over...

Odd post. Because some knuckle dragging morons were racist towards you, you chose the route of 'not much sympathy' towards people that have nothing to do with it?

After living in the UK for quite a while, there were few instances of random (probably UKIP/BNP voting) trash telling me to 'go home'. Just imagine how stupid it would be to extrapolate the behaviour of few morons onto the general population.

[anonymous-user]

Knuckle-dragger hatred towards Polish people in the UK was much in evidence just after the Brexit vote. The solution for being hated isn't to hate back.

[BlackFlag]

Digga said:

This is a clear failure of brutalist, monolithic top-down politics. Each country ought to have been given more autonomy to organise their response to the migrant crisis. .

But they weren't as the agenda, long-term, is to erase culture and eliminate the concept of the nation state.

Centralization of power via divide and conquer tactics.

[83HP]

Digga said:

It's not good when a country goes down the cul-de-sac (because it is, morally, culturally and economically a dead-end) .

I wouldn't be so sure.. there is around 2.5 million Ukrainians working in Poland right now to fill the gap.

[chunder27]

There is always going to be a consequence to millions of them being here.

[jurbie]

jjlynn27 said:

Odd post. Because some knuckle dragging morons were racist towards you, you chose the route of 'not much sympathy' towards people that have nothing to do with it?

After living in the UK for quite a while, there were few instances of random (probably UKIP/BNP voting) trash telling me to 'go home'. Just imagine how stupid it would be to extrapolate the behaviour of few morons onto the general population.

Happens all the time, just a few posts up there is mention of the tensions between Jews and Poles before the war and many will try to claim that it was rife and Poles were complicit in the holocaust. The reality is that the tensions were real and some did take the opportunity to turn in their neighbours but the vast majority did what they could to help their Jewish neighbours despite the fact that doing so was a guaranteed death sentence if caught.

It's on odd form of reverse racism, if that's not too harsh a term, where it's fine to tar one group of people one way but not another group.

An interesting point about the Ukrainians in Poland is that most of them are classed as refugees because they are escaping the war in the east and when classed that way Poland has taken in almost as many refugees as Germany. In light of that it's probably fair to say that Poland has done it's bit with regard to the refugee crisis unless of course only brown people escaping wars are classed as refugees?

[anonymous-user]

chunder27 said:

There is always going to be a consequence to millions of them being here.

About one million out of sixty five million. Mostly with at least one worker per family. What's the problem?

[83HP]

Breadvan72 said:

About one million out of sixty five million. Mostly with at least one worker per family. What's the problem?

Too many too soon.. hopefully it'll balance itself out now that prospects aren't as grim as they were back in the early 00's

[Frougal_Mcdougal]

jjlynn27 said:

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

Spent the last week in Poland for work just after these events and it was still a big deal in the media on panel shows etc.

Being black British I experienced overt racism for the first time in my adult life; twice in one week. Couldn’t say for sure if both are connected but I’ve spent an average of 3months a yr out there for the past four often you “feel” things below the surface but this was bad.

Made me feel even more proud to be British; generally tolerant and accepting of differences as a country. Not much sympathy from me as you can imagine for the “Brexit was a hate crime to Polish people in Britain” media coverage after Last june. Sorry rant over...

Odd post. Because some knuckle dragging morons were racist towards you, you chose the route of 'not much sympathy' towards people that have nothing to do with it?

After living in the UK for quite a while, there were few instances of random (probably UKIP/BNP voting) trash telling me to 'go home'. Just imagine how stupid it would be to extrapolate the behaviour of few morons onto the general population.

I think you misunderstood my point; there was a lot of talk last year in the media trying to explain a vote for Brexit as an expression of hatred to people from Eastern Europe. I have no sympathy with that view, sorry. Under no illusions that some racist acts happen here but the 2 incidents i experienced last week were so open to be frightening in one case and just depressing in the other. I have spent much of the last 4yrs in Poland working for up to 3wks at Stretch in non-tourist cities and I’ve often felt a slight hostility under the surface. But last week following this March/protest was something else. I’ve worked and lived on 3 continents and I stand by my previous comment that there aren’t many more tolerant societies than here in Britain. I know its kind of a sport to do us down in the current political climate but I take a long view. My experiences are much better than my parents’ and my little boys’ will be better than mine. Most people here just want to get along...call me naive!

[anonymous-user]

Hatred of foreigners was at a strong factor for SOME (NOT all) leave voters. Others who do not hate foreigners had fears (usually irrational and/or based on misinformation) about immigration. Border control was a big factor overall.

I agree that the UK is mostly a tolerant place. That its why it is so saddening to see the empowerment of racism and xenophobia by mob manipulators such as Farage.

[Digga]

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

jjlynn27 said:

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

Spent the last week in Poland for work just after these events and it was still a big deal in the media on panel shows etc.

Being black British I experienced overt racism for the first time in my adult life; twice in one week. Couldn’t say for sure if both are connected but I’ve spent an average of 3months a yr out there for the past four often you “feel” things below the surface but this was bad.

Made me feel even more proud to be British; generally tolerant and accepting of differences as a country. Not much sympathy from me as you can imagine for the “Brexit was a hate crime to Polish people in Britain” media coverage after Last june. Sorry rant over...

Odd post. Because some knuckle dragging morons were racist towards you, you chose the route of 'not much sympathy' towards people that have nothing to do with it?

After living in the UK for quite a while, there were few instances of random (probably UKIP/BNP voting) trash telling me to 'go home'. Just imagine how stupid it would be to extrapolate the behaviour of few morons onto the general population.

I think you misunderstood my point; there was a lot of talk last year in the media trying to explain a vote for Brexit as an expression of hatred to people from Eastern Europe. I have no sympathy with that view, sorry. Under no illusions that some racist acts happen here but the 2 incidents i experienced last week were so open to be frightening in one case and just depressing in the other. I have spent much of the last 4yrs in Poland working for up to 3wks at Stretch in non-tourist cities and I’ve often felt a slight hostility under the surface. But last week following this March/protest was something else. I’ve worked and lived on 3 continents and I stand by my previous comment that there aren’t many more tolerant societies than here in Britain. I know its kind of a sport to do us down in the current political climate but I take a long view. My experiences are much better than my parents’ and my little boys’ will be better than mine. Most people here just want to get along...call me naive!

I think your point was more than misunderstood. Call it an oversimplification, but I totally fail to see how a white EU migrant in the UK can, in any way know or experience quite the same overt racism as a black person in Poland. Equating the two is utterly ludicrous.

[83HP]

Breadvan72 said:

Hatred of foreigners was at a strong factor for SOME (NOT all) leave voters. Others who do not hate foreigners had fears (usually irrational and/or based on misinformation) about immigration. Border control was a big factor overall.

I agree that the UK is mostly a tolerant place. That its why it is so saddening to see the empowerment of racism and xenophobia by mob manipulators such as Farage.

I'm polish by ethnicity I voted leave in the hope of limiting immigration from the former eastern bloc.. it is not racist or xenophobic to want control of immigration.

[anonymous-user]

No, but voting to restrict free movement of mostly useful people is arguably not very sensible.

In any event, Farage appealed openly to racism and xenophobia and some heeded his appeal.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 21st November 16:05

[jjlynn27]

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

I think you misunderstood my point; there was a lot of talk last year in the media trying to explain a vote for Brexit as an expression of hatred to people from Eastern Europe. I have no sympathy with that view, sorry. Under no illusions that some racist acts happen here but the 2 incidents i experienced last week were so open to be frightening in one case and just depressing in the other. I have spent much of the last 4yrs in Poland working for up to 3wks at Stretch in non-tourist cities and I’ve often felt a slight hostility under the surface. But last week following this March/protest was something else. I’ve worked and lived on 3 continents and I stand by my previous comment that there aren’t many more tolerant societies than here in Britain. I know its kind of a sport to do us down in the current political climate but I take a long view. My experiences are much better than my parents’ and my little boys’ will be better than mine. Most people here just want to get along...call me naive!

I don't think that I misunderstood your point at all. I doubt that anyone in 'media' tried to say that everyone who did vote leave was knuckle-dragging eastern european hating moron.

What you've experienced in Poland and what polish people are experiencing in the UK are the different side of the same coin, the rather primitive intolerance. It's perpetuated by a tiny percentage of the population. To extrapolate the behaviour of those over the whole population and to reach a conclusion which society is more tolerant is naive at best.

[Funkycoldribena]

Breadvan72 said:

No, but voting to restrict free movement of mostly useful people is arguably not very sensible.

In any event, Farage appealed openly to racism and xenophobia and some heeded his appeal.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Tuesday 21st November 16:05

Don't worry about the ghost towns left behind though...

[Frougal_Mcdougal]

jjlynn27 said:

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

I think you misunderstood my point; there was a lot of talk last year in the media trying to explain a vote for Brexit as an expression of hatred to people from Eastern Europe. I have no sympathy with that view, sorry. Under no illusions that some racist acts happen here but the 2 incidents i experienced last week were so open to be frightening in one case and just depressing in the other. I have spent much of the last 4yrs in Poland working for up to 3wks at Stretch in non-tourist cities and I’ve often felt a slight hostility under the surface. But last week following this March/protest was something else. I’ve worked and lived on 3 continents and I stand by my previous comment that there aren’t many more tolerant societies than here in Britain. I know its kind of a sport to do us down in the current political climate but I take a long view. My experiences are much better than my parents’ and my little boys’ will be better than mine. Most people here just want to get along...call me naive!

I don't think that I misunderstood your point at all. I doubt that anyone in 'media' tried to say that everyone who did vote leave was knuckle-dragging eastern european hating moron.

What you've experienced in Poland and what polish people are experiencing in the UK are the different side of the same coin, the rather primitive intolerance. It's perpetuated by a tiny percentage of the population. To extrapolate the behaviour of those over the whole population and to reach a conclusion which society is more tolerant is naive at best.

I’ve tried to share my experience of the recent events in Poland which is what the thread is about. We’re all allowed an opinion and we just happen to disagree. Racism is a much more complex issue that I’d rather not try to debate with you just now so suggest we move on...

[jjlynn27]

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

I’ve tried to share my experience of the recent events in Poland which is what the thread is about. We’re all allowed an opinion and we just happen to disagree. Racism is a much more complex issue that I’d rather not try to debate with you just now so suggest we move on...

Sure, you linked your experience with not having sympathy for people experiencing the same. I don't understand that mindset at all.

[Digga]

jjlynn27 said:

Frougal_Mcdougal said:

I’ve tried to share my experience of the recent events in Poland which is what the thread is about. We’re all allowed an opinion and we just happen to disagree. Racism is a much more complex issue that I’d rather not try to debate with you just now so suggest we move on...

Sure, you linked your experience with not having sympathy for people experiencing the same. I don't understand that mindset at all.

I'd rather say, if you read his post, he had no sympathy for the way the matter was spun in the media. The concept is nuanced and there is a difference between that and being entirely without sympathy for Polish people.

[chunder27]

There is no hatred of foreigners in my mind.

What there is hatred of is a system that allowed them to come over en masse, and cripple the services system that was unable to cope with it.

And will always now be unable due to the grip government has had to put on it due to the recession.

I do not blame anyone for travelling here to work. There are numerous reasons why this happened.

But I do blame the system that was put in place to allow mass immigration to a country that was ill equipped to deal with it and did not foresee these issues such as housing, health education and the tensions it would cause among the working class.

Poles are hard working, good people. With a long tradition of coaltion with the UK. Most of them do not want to be here, they are here for money and money alone. And that brings with it massive ups and downs in several areas of our lives.