Is Britain Full?

Author
Discussion

KrissKross

2,182 posts

100 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Adam Ansel said:
Demographics.
We need people to pay taxes so that Baby Boomers get their pensions and care workers.
The people arriving to do low end job roles are not capable of contributing enough tax to cover themselves, let alone the rest of us.

The maths does not work, its a simple as that.

Paying £800 a year in tax does not cover an individuals needs.

Skilled people yes, unskilled people no.


227bhp

10,203 posts

127 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Hayek said:
227bhp said:
Troubleatmill said:
Why do we need more people here exactly?
Plenty of space in the really big countries that could be filled up first.
We don't need just people, we need a certain type of people (so i'm told).
Apparently we need foreigners to do the jobs we CBA to do.
We don't even need that, just a good excuse. We're quite capable of training our own people and paying enough for stuff so that it makes economic sense for someone to be arsed to do it. Yes we would be poorer financially, but richer in other ways.
Well I'm playing Devils Advocate here, but you can't make people work who don't want to, their product no matter how basic, has to be of a certain standard.
If you withdraw their dole or whatever they'll go to crime instead, so we'll have a society of rude sloven waiters and piss poor expensive fruit and veg and more crime.
They did prove some of that in an experiment where they took some of our traditional layabouts, put them with an equal amount of eastern Europeans and sent them picking veg in a field, as you can imagine the Brits didn't turn up half the time, sloped off every half an hour for a fag, picked less then the others etc.
We have bred these people like this, society is wrong.

227bhp

10,203 posts

127 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Troubleatmill said:
227bhp said:
Troubleatmill said:
Why do we need more people here exactly?
Plenty of space in the really big countries that could be filled up first.
We don't need just people, we need a certain type of people (so i'm told).
Apparently we need foreigners to do the jobs we CBA to do.
Perhaps we just stop dole money...... I'm sure that will get lazy feckers off the sofa watching Sky and doing some hard graft.


Yes - it is too easy to ignore the problem and import workers who are willing to do the work.

We need some bloody backbone - and no free lunches - you want money - you work for it.

Once we have near net 0 unemployment...... that is when you look at bringing in others.

Why do I need 14 Polish people to wash a car. When I'm in Germany it goes through a machine - and it recycles the water.
See my post above ^^
In Germany it's against the law to wash your own car for environmental reasons, if they didn't have that they'd have the same as us.

You can't have anywhere zero unemployment as there are some people who can't genuinely work.

Nothingtoseehere

7,379 posts

153 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
What about John Smith who finds himself redundant at 60? Should he be in hardship?
Have you ever been unemployed? It isn't fun applying for job after job without so much as the decency of a reply.


Nothingtoseehere

7,379 posts

153 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
227bhp said:
Well I'm playing Devils Advocate here, but you can't make people work who don't want to, their product no matter how basic, has to be of a certain standard.
If you withdraw their dole or whatever they'll go to crime instead, so we'll have a society of rude sloven waiters and piss poor expensive fruit and veg and more crime.
They did prove some of that in an experiment where they took some of our traditional layabouts, put them with an equal amount of eastern Europeans and sent them picking veg in a field, as you can imagine the Brits didn't turn up half the time, sloped off every half an hour for a fag, picked less then the others etc.
We have bred these people like this, society is wrong.
We've been through this many times,pay the UK worker the equivalent of 4 to 5 times the minimum wage and they wouldn't slope off for a fag.

mjb1

2,552 posts

158 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Ignoring the fact that we don't have enough agricultural space to support ourselves any more, the country could physically accommodate more people, but it's not being done in a structured way at the moment. We're just tacking new estates on the edges of towns, and not building any new facilities or infrastructure to go with the increased population. None of these estates have pubs or convenience stores, and we're ending up with a sprawling mass of crammed in houses with lack of decent gardens for kids to play in or drive ways for the typical 2 car family (and you need two cars because a lot of these estates are miles away from anything resembling a town/village centre where the amenities like schools, doctors surgeries etc are).

The population is rising at 500k people per year? That's a lot of people, we need to be building a new city the size of Bristol or Cardiff every year to even come close to keeping up with it. And that clearly isn't happening, or in any way feasible. Sure we have a fair amount of 'green'/open countryside, but it's pretty well protected, and a lot of it is owned by the upper classes. Chances of building on that seem fairly slim. All we're doing at the moment is scratting round the edge, tacking on new housing estates here and there, and regenerating brownfield sites. The closest we've come to any structure new building is the planned eco towns, and they have taken years of admin to get anywhere near reality, and even then, they are no where near meeting the needs of 500k people per year.

Funny that all the greens/lefties who say current immigration levels are acceptable/necessary, and that the country is no where near full, are the first ones that would be up in arms if it was proposed to build a new city or infrastructure on green belt. We're barely building any new roads any more, just bodging a bit of extra capacity in with managed motorways/hard shoulder running, and the odd bit of widening. Pretty much every bit of motorway in the UK needs at least on extra lane adding to get the capacity up to where it was 30 years ago.

Other planned capacity expansion has been hit with opposition from all sides - Heathrow expansion/ new runways in the SE, HS2. Everyone rants about HS2 not being significantly faster than the current rail routes, but the aim isn't for more speed, its for more capacity. I do disagree with their claims that it will bring new industry to the north though - what it'll really do is the opposite, make London more commutable from further north.

It's a fking mess, that's for sure.

ATG

20,485 posts

271 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Pesty said:
Mrr T said:
The high population density in the south east is distorted by London. I live in the south east on the edge of a commuter town. From my back windows all I see is fields. Going east the next large town is 20 miles away with just fields and some small towns and villages in-between.
You know those fields are there for a reason don't you

Do you also know that the uk is not self sufficient in food generation. Even India can manage that.

Let's build in the fields and bring in more people. Great idea.
It's a perfectly good idea. Have a look at what percentage of the UK actually has residential development plonked on it and compare that to the land used for farming. A tiny amount of farm land could provide an enormous increase in dwellings.

227bhp

10,203 posts

127 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Nothingtoseehere said:
227bhp said:
Well I'm playing Devils Advocate here, but you can't make people work who don't want to, their product no matter how basic, has to be of a certain standard.
If you withdraw their dole or whatever they'll go to crime instead, so we'll have a society of rude sloven waiters and piss poor expensive fruit and veg and more crime.
They did prove some of that in an experiment where they took some of our traditional layabouts, put them with an equal amount of eastern Europeans and sent them picking veg in a field, as you can imagine the Brits didn't turn up half the time, sloped off every half an hour for a fag, picked less then the others etc.
We have bred these people like this, society is wrong.
We've been through this many times,pay the UK worker the equivalent of 4 to 5 times the minimum wage and they wouldn't slope off for a fag.
I don't think i'll be eating much when a packet of bruised tomatoes costs circa £10.

princealbert23

2,574 posts

160 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
227bhp said:
You can't have anywhere zero unemployment as there are some people who can't genuinely work.
They will have been on ESA and those that can work will be JSA. Mind you lots of ESA claimants can work and find it helps their overall health.


Edited by princealbert23 on Friday 23 June 18:42

Yipper

5,964 posts

89 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Anyone who has ever done a biz degree or MBA will know these problems are not at all new and have been dragging on for decades.

London is doing good. Everywhere else in the UK is doing bad.

Low-skill, low-education owners / managers / governance and under-trained, under-educated employees given low-quality computers / machines / tools churning out low-quality products and services at excessively high costs. From overstaffed car washes in Norfolk to surly shop staff in Cardiff and closing factories in Glasgow, it is a right old mess.

England southeast is getting close to full. From Cambridge to Brighton and Southampton, it is getting increasingly hard to find proper countryside solitude. A sign of how "busy" it all is.

AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
227bhp said:
In Germany it's against the law to wash your own car for environmental reasons,...
I'm sorry, what? It's illegal to wash your own car, WTaF!

The EU (and in particular Germany) are turning into fking fruit-loops!

I guess making up new laws is the only thing they can do to justify their existence and salary, the world needs less laws, not new ones and certainly not ridiculous st like the above.

AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Nothingtoseehere said:
We've been through this many times,pay the UK worker the equivalent of 4 to 5 times the minimum wage and they wouldn't slope off for a fag.
Wonderful idea, would you like the price of all your goods to go up 4 or 5 times?

Nothingtoseehere

7,379 posts

153 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
227bhp said:
Nothingtoseehere said:
227bhp said:
Well I'm playing Devils Advocate here, but you can't make people work who don't want to, their product no matter how basic, has to be of a certain standard.
If you withdraw their dole or whatever they'll go to crime instead, so we'll have a society of rude sloven waiters and piss poor expensive fruit and veg and more crime.
They did prove some of that in an experiment where they took some of our traditional layabouts, put them with an equal amount of eastern Europeans and sent them picking veg in a field, as you can imagine the Brits didn't turn up half the time, sloped off every half an hour for a fag, picked less then the others etc.
We have bred these people like this, society is wrong.
We've been through this many times,pay the UK worker the equivalent of 4 to 5 times the minimum wage and they wouldn't slope off for a fag.
I don't think i'll be eating much when a packet of bruised tomatoes costs circa £10.
It was more of a counter to the 'they work so much harder' which gets trotted out so often.
No wonder,when its several times what they'd get back home.

AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
Nothingtoseehere said:
It was more of a counter to the 'they work so much harder' which gets trotted out so often.
No wonder,when its several times what they'd get back home.
True, however I do think other countries have less people with the poor work ethic of many Brits.

menousername

2,106 posts

141 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
AshVX220 said:
True, however I do think other countries have less people with the poor work ethic of many Brits.
We need to make it a PH-wide rule that when this statement is made, the maker acknowledges that it includes themselves

If Brits have a poor work ethic then it includes all Brits including the person making the claim

Lets be honest - we are kidding ourselves if we think everyone else has a poor work ethic but us.

Anyway - where did this idea come from. Brits are grafters, always have been.

CAPP0

19,533 posts

202 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
AC43 said:
Easier to blame Johnny Foriegner of course because that gets votes in some parts of the country.
See this is the thing that really pisses me off. Say we're overpopulated and you're instantly a racist.

The two things are completely separate. it doesn't matter whether you have a population of 65m with 5000 different races, or a population of 65m caucasians. It's still 65m human beings and there just isn't the infrastructure to cope, even if, technically, there is the square meterage. I live in the South East and over the past 15 years or so it has become impossible to park in several small towns, the average journey time for, say, a 15 mile trip must have easily doubled, you can't get on a train an hour out of London and get a seat, the doctor's surgeries are all full and have closed their books….etc etc etc.

Its not racist to say that you can't pour a quart into a pint pot.

Nothingtoseehere

7,379 posts

153 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
CAPP0 said:
See this is the thing that really pisses me off. Say we're overpopulated and you're instantly a racist.

The two things are completely separate. it doesn't matter whether you have a population of 65m with 5000 different races, or a population of 65m caucasians. It's still 65m human beings and there just isn't the infrastructure to cope, even if, technically, there is the square meterage. I live in the South East and over the past 15 years or so it has become impossible to park in several small towns, the average journey time for, say, a 15 mile trip must have easily doubled, you can't get on a train an hour out of London and get a seat, the doctor's surgeries are all full and have closed their books….etc etc etc.

Its not racist to say that you can't pour a quart into a pint pot.
Far too much of this nowadays-
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/katy-perry-calls...

AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
menousername said:
AshVX220 said:
True, however I do think other countries have less people with the poor work ethic of many Brits.
We need to make it a PH-wide rule that when this statement is made, the maker acknowledges that it includes themselves

If Brits have a poor work ethic then it includes all Brits including the person making the claim

Lets be honest - we are kidding ourselves if we think everyone else has a poor work ethic but us.

Anyway - where did this idea come from. Brits are grafters, always have been.
Why, I didn't say "all Brits", maybe you should check what "many" means?

menousername

2,106 posts

141 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
AshVX220 said:
Why, I didn't say "all Brits", maybe you should check what "many" means?
Because it was a generalisation- one made often by plenty of people who never include themselves in the statement. I think you/they should.






loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Friday 23rd June 2017
quotequote all
wiggy001 said:
Mrr T said:
The high population density in the south east is distorted by London. I live in the south east on the edge of a commuter town. From my back windows all I see is fields. Going east the next large town is 20 miles away with just fields and some small towns and villages in-between.
Would you be happy if those fields were built on to create a new "garden village", merging your town with the next?
If the proposal really does merge two villages, it is urban sprawl and the exact opposite of what Garden Villages are supposed to be.