Victoria Station unexploded bomb

[s2kjock]

Cotty said:

Victoria Station was evacuated after an unexploded Second World War bomb was discovered during building works.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-ra...

Cool kit

Why would a bomb disposal type police person have a sidearm? Is it for dealing with sea-mines like in the movies?

[Mr_B]

s2kjock said:

Cotty said:

Victoria Station was evacuated after an unexploded Second World War bomb was discovered during building works.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-ra...

Cool kit

Why would a bomb disposal type police person have a sidearm? Is it for dealing with sea-mines like in the movies?

Probably if he goes to any live situation, hostage incident with armed/dangerous people still on the scene and which he has to operate the equipment, something along those lines I guess.

[Digga]

Mr_B said:

Digga said:

Mr_B said:

Cotty said:

Mr_B said:

Didn't a German bomber crash into the station during the Battle of Britain ? Wasn't it a famous incident in which a Hurricane pilot deliberately rammed the bomber and chopped its tail clean off after he said it was heading for Buckingham Palace ? Was wondering if it could be from that crash.

You mean this
http://www.bbm.org.uk/as-holmes.htm

That's it. I'm wondering if it had already dropped its bomb load or if they went down with the aircraft. Slim chance, as I'm sure they would have searched for this. Interesting though.

IIRC, we can at least derail this into an anti-immigrant thread because I think that pilot was Polish.

(Joking aside, a very, very brave guy.)

Wiki says born in Liverpool.

Even worse. Bet the plane was TWOCed?

[starnberg]

s2kjock said:

Cotty said:

Victoria Station was evacuated after an unexploded Second World War bomb was discovered during building works.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-ra...

Cool kit

Why would a bomb disposal type police person have a sidearm? Is it for dealing with sea-mines like in the movies?

Because he's an Aussie. Doubt our ATOs are armed when dealing with a device over here.

[supertouring]

s1962a said:

andymadmak said:

Willy Nilly said:

Cotty said:

Cool kit

Where can you buy one of those from?

Mercedes Benz commercial?

I was looking for a kit robot to learn how to code with the raspberry pi (its the in thing apparently). Do these come in meccanno kit form?

Practice for the new Robot Wars series has started early?

[mph1977]

Mr_B said:

s2kjock said:

Cotty said:

Victoria Station was evacuated after an unexploded Second World War bomb was discovered during building works.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-ra...

Cool kit

Why would a bomb disposal type police person have a sidearm? Is it for dealing with sea-mines like in the movies?

Probably if he goes to any live situation, hostage incident with armed/dangerous people still on the scene and which he has to operate the equipment, something along those lines I guess.

i think he's a Victoria Police Officer ( i.e. from 'Stralia) in the pic

[yellowjack]

Mr_B said:

I think it was C5 who filmed the recovery of Ray's Hurricane for a documentary. A few seconds in from the start has film of the Dornier falling out of the sky and into Victoria station.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lACDhxSLbYQ

Wow!

"Ray was a hero. The palace was saved!"



Ray was a clown, at a time when pilots and aeroplanes were the key to this island nation's survival, he deliberately, and recklessly destroyed his aeroplane and risked his own life in order to save one Palace, and in doing so he caused the attacking aeroplane to plummet to earth in a densely populated area of London. Way to go, Ray!

What Ray ought to have done was to return to his airfield, to refuel and rearm his Hurricane, and return to the fray. I'm not knocking the bravery required to aim your aeroplane at another, just questioning his judgement in doing so.

As for the question of the bombs remaining buried? They often do. The EOC (explosive ordnance clearance) group archive at 33 Engr Regt (EOD) is full of maps from the period, and the immediate post war years, detailing where bombs fell, and where they exploded. The damage assessments, or detailed notes from UXO disposal operations at the time will give guidance on the bomb load, and gaps in the groups of bombs show where it is likely that ordnance still remains in the ground. Adding to the issue, though, is where multiple bomb loads landed in close proximity. It then makes it more difficult to interpret the evidence, and so there do remain a lot of unknown UXO sites. Also, dependent on the fusing method, a bomb released at too low an altitude will not 'arm' before it reaches the ground. And yes, physics dictates that large solid masses like bombs do bury themselves deeper than relatively flimsy airframes.

We're still digging this stuff up, despite sites having been built over, sometimes several times, since the bombs dropped. That's because with ever taller buildings come ever deeper foundations/piling. Rest assured that Sarah at the EOC archive will be pulling all the maps on this area as the teams deploy, and if it is additional to those impact sites already known, it'll be added to the knowledge bank.

And sorry to be a Ray Holmes naysayer, but if I were his CO, I certainly wouldn't have been pleased. It's more by luck than by any judgement on his part that neither the Dornier, nor his busted Hurricane caused civilian deaths on the ground, whereas the Dornier's bombs, if aimed at Buckingham Palace, could just as well have missed, and fallen harmlessly on the Mall, the palace garden or in the Royal Parks thereabouts. Ray's Hurricane severed a high pressure water main. High pressure mains water is often what's used to fight fires. Important thing, fire fighting. Especially in a densely populated city in the middle of an air raid..

..oh, and call me Mr Grumpy, but why the hell did they need to cause chaos in London digging up this Hurricane? It's not as if it was necessary in order to recover human remains or anything unique. Should have just left the damned thing where it was, IMHO.

[The Mad Monk]

Mr_B said:

Digga said:

Mr_B said:

Cotty said:

Mr_B said:

Didn't a German bomber crash into the station during the Battle of Britain ? Wasn't it a famous incident in which a Hurricane pilot deliberately rammed the bomber and chopped its tail clean off after he said it was heading for Buckingham Palace ? Was wondering if it could be from that crash.

You mean this
http://www.bbm.org.uk/as-holmes.htm

That's it. I'm wondering if it had already dropped its bomb load or if they went down with the aircraft. Slim chance, as I'm sure they would have searched for this. Interesting though.

IIRC, we can at least derail this into an anti-immigrant thread because I think that pilot was Polish.

(Joking aside, a very, very brave guy.)

Wiki says born in Liverpool.

Same thing.

[TTwiggy]

yellowjack said:

Wow!

"Ray was a hero. The palace was saved!"



Ray was a clown, at a time when pilots and aeroplanes were the key to this island nation's survival, he deliberately, and recklessly destroyed his aeroplane and risked his own life in order to save one Palace, and in doing so he caused the attacking aeroplane to plummet to earth in a densely populated area of London. Way to go, Ray!

What Ray ought to have done was to return to his airfield, to refuel and rearm his Hurricane, and return to the fray. I'm not knocking the bravery required to aim your aeroplane at another, just questioning his judgement in doing so.

As for the question of the bombs remaining buried? They often do. The EOC (explosive ordnance clearance) group archive at 33 Engr Regt (EOD) is full of maps from the period, and the immediate post war years, detailing where bombs fell, and where they exploded. The damage assessments, or detailed notes from UXO disposal operations at the time will give guidance on the bomb load, and gaps in the groups of bombs show where it is likely that ordnance still remains in the ground. Adding to the issue, though, is where multiple bomb loads landed in close proximity. It then makes it more difficult to interpret the evidence, and so there do remain a lot of unknown UXO sites. Also, dependent on the fusing method, a bomb released at too low an altitude will not 'arm' before it reaches the ground. And yes, physics dictates that large solid masses like bombs do bury themselves deeper than relatively flimsy airframes.

We're still digging this stuff up, despite sites having been built over, sometimes several times, since the bombs dropped. That's because with ever taller buildings come ever deeper foundations/piling. Rest assured that Sarah at the EOC archive will be pulling all the maps on this area as the teams deploy, and if it is additional to those impact sites already known, it'll be added to the knowledge bank.

And sorry to be a Ray Holmes naysayer, but if I were his CO, I certainly wouldn't have been pleased. It's more by luck than by any judgement on his part that neither the Dornier, nor his busted Hurricane caused civilian deaths on the ground, whereas the Dornier's bombs, if aimed at Buckingham Palace, could just as well have missed, and fallen harmlessly on the Mall, the palace garden or in the Royal Parks thereabouts. Ray's Hurricane severed a high pressure water main. High pressure mains water is often what's used to fight fires. Important thing, fire fighting. Especially in a densely populated city in the middle of an air raid..

..oh, and call me Mr Grumpy, but why the hell did they need to cause chaos in London digging up this Hurricane? It's not as if it was necessary in order to recover human remains or anything unique. Should have just left the damned thing where it was, IMHO.

One might argue that a number of VC recipients earned the top honour through actions that were arguably towards the 'idiotic' end of the hero spectrum. Col. H Jones springs to mind as one example. I guess we recognise selfless bravery for what it is and tend to downplay the bigger picture.

[yellowjack]

TTwiggy said:

One might argue that a number of VC recipients earned the top honour through actions that were arguably towards the 'idiotic' end of the hero spectrum. Col. H Jones springs to mind as one example. I guess we recognise selfless bravery for what it is and tend to downplay the bigger picture.

Yup, agreed. I'm looking at it from a 21st century perspective, sat comfortably behind a keyboard, free to publish my opinion to anyone who'll read it thanks to the Ray Holmes' of this world. Weighing things up in the cold light of day, with time to watch documentaries and read reports, it's the conclusion I have come to. Sgt Ray Holmes had seconds in which to decide what he would do, and given the fact that no civilian casualties were directly caused by his action, nor was the palace hit, then it doesn't seem to have played out too badly for him. Add to that the fact that pilots were in shorter supply than aeroplanes, and hey? Maybe I was a bit harsh.

[TTwiggy]

yellowjack said:

TTwiggy said:

One might argue that a number of VC recipients earned the top honour through actions that were arguably towards the 'idiotic' end of the hero spectrum. Col. H Jones springs to mind as one example. I guess we recognise selfless bravery for what it is and tend to downplay the bigger picture.

Yup, agreed. I'm looking at it from a 21st century perspective, sat comfortably behind a keyboard, free to publish my opinion to anyone who'll read it thanks to the Ray Holmes' of this world. Weighing things up in the cold light of day, with time to watch documentaries and read reports, it's the conclusion I have come to. Sgt Ray Holmes had seconds in which to decide what he would do, and given the fact that no civilian casualties were directly caused by his action, nor was the palace hit, then it doesn't seem to have played out too badly for him. Add to that the fact that pilots were in shorter supply than aeroplanes, and hey? Maybe I was a bit harsh.

I don't think you were harsh, I think it's a fascinating subject. How people will react under the most stressful of situations and how their actions may be viewed (often dependant on random outcomes) is really interesting and the line between hero and 'twit' can often be very thin.

[Digga]

TTwiggy said:

yellowjack said:

TTwiggy said:

One might argue that a number of VC recipients earned the top honour through actions that were arguably towards the 'idiotic' end of the hero spectrum. Col. H Jones springs to mind as one example. I guess we recognise selfless bravery for what it is and tend to downplay the bigger picture.

Yup, agreed. I'm looking at it from a 21st century perspective, sat comfortably behind a keyboard, free to publish my opinion to anyone who'll read it thanks to the Ray Holmes' of this world. Weighing things up in the cold light of day, with time to watch documentaries and read reports, it's the conclusion I have come to. Sgt Ray Holmes had seconds in which to decide what he would do, and given the fact that no civilian casualties were directly caused by his action, nor was the palace hit, then it doesn't seem to have played out too badly for him. Add to that the fact that pilots were in shorter supply than aeroplanes, and hey? Maybe I was a bit harsh.

I don't think you were harsh, I think it's a fascinating subject. How people will react under the most stressful of situations and how their actions may be viewed (often dependant on random outcomes) is really interesting and the line between hero and 'twit' can often be very thin.

I think the general argument applies equally in peacetime too; one person's hero is another person's adrenaline addled idiot.

[TTwiggy]

Digga said:

think the general argument applies equally in peacetime too; one person's hero is another person's adrenaline addled idiot.

Absolutely. I feel much the same way about mountain climbers and other 'extreme' sports people. It's possible to admire their balls while simultaneously questioning their judgement and motivation.

[Digga]

TTwiggy said:

Digga said:

think the general argument applies equally in peacetime too; one person's hero is another person's adrenaline addled idiot.

Absolutely. I feel much the same way about mountain climbers and other 'extreme' sports people. It's possible to admire their balls while simultaneously questioning their judgement and motivation.

Me too, I am on both sides of the fence; I participate in some of these activities and also wonder at the risk to rescuers and the burden on the health system they represent. That said, active people will generally require less medical care throughout their lives, so it is a real conundrum.

[funkyrobot]

s2kjock said:

Cotty said:

Victoria Station was evacuated after an unexploded Second World War bomb was discovered during building works.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-ra...

Cool kit

Why would a bomb disposal type police person have a sidearm? Is it for dealing with sea-mines like in the movies?

It's to shoot the bomb from a safe distance. Like in the films, ya know!

[Rutter]

Fools posting stuff like this, when the metro title states its a WW2 bomb!

Edited by Rutter on Friday 5th February 16:56

[Trevatanus]

Rutter said:

Fools posting stuff like this, when the metro title states its a WW2 bomb!

Edited by Rutter on Friday 5th February 16:56

Did you not know?

Muslims now have time machines, they went back and started WW2! It's all their fault!

[IroningMan]

TTwiggy said:

Digga said:

think the general argument applies equally in peacetime too; one person's hero is another person's adrenaline addled idiot.

Absolutely. I feel much the same way about mountain climbers and other 'extreme' sports people. It's possible to admire their balls while simultaneously questioning their judgement and motivation.

I used to take the same position - but I got a crick in my neck from all the looking up.

[smn159]

Trevatanus said:

Did you not know?

Muslims now have time machines, they went back and started WW2! It's all their fault!

Is there not an EU / BBC / poor people angle to this as well?

PH is slipping

[yellowjack]

starnberg said:

s2kjock said:

Cotty said:

Victoria Station was evacuated after an unexploded Second World War bomb was discovered during building works.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-ra...

Cool kit

Why would a bomb disposal type police person have a sidearm? Is it for dealing with sea-mines like in the movies?

Because he's an Aussie. Doubt our ATOs are armed when dealing with a device over here.

Unlikely to be an ATO dealing with WWII stuff. More likely my old mob, 33 Engr Regt (EOD) or 101 (City of London) Engr Regt (EOD). That's where all the expertise and equipment is, together with the notes on all the previous German air-dropped ordnance jobs. RLC (Really Large Corps) ATOs like the sexy jobs where they get to do "the long walk" in that heavy suit, snipping the red wire with a pair of pliers. They leave the scrabbling round in London clay with their sleeves rolled up to the Sappers. The biggest part of these WWII jobs is exposing the 'find', identifying it accurately, adjusting the cordon area to suit the potential blast radius, and cleaning it up to work out which fuse(s) are fitted. Then the disarming operation is planned and executed. There isn't really a place in all that for a robot - mostly done with shovels by the crew. Usually the easiest "in" is to open the bomb's case, and steam out the explosives for disposal off site. Once the explosive fill is removed from the equation the fuses can do their worst.

Traditionally the cases were opened with something called a mechanical trepanner...



...nowadays a high pressure water jet abrasive cutting device is used, but the result is the same - a hole through the case of the bomb a few inches in diameter through which the 'fill' can be extracted.

This is a page about RAF Bomb Disposal operations... http://www.rafbdassociation.com/wartime-equipment.... ...but it deals with the various methods for making safe an air-dropped bomb.

Terrorist IEDs are very much a different kettle of fish, and for good reason I won't discuss what goes on with that side of things. (Principally because it's outside of my area of expertise )

Edit to add...

...A picture (the only one I found in a brief online search) of the modern 'Case Entry' water jet kit...

...which is from this web page... http://www.mpeforth.com/ngr.htm

...some background to Engr EOD (UK) ops here... http://www.101erra.org/history/BD75_2.html

...and for anyone interested in seeing first hand what RE Bomb Disposal units do with their tax money, 2016 is the 300 year anniversary of the establishment of separate Engineers and Artillery by Royal Warrant of King George I. It is being celebrated as the 'birth' of the modern Corps of Royal Engineers, and as part of the celebrations, open days will be held at Royal Engineer units countrywide. The RE Bomb Disposal open days will be held on 24/25 July 2016 at Wimbish, near Saffron Walden in Essex... http://www.army.mod.uk/royalengineers/39658.aspx

Edited by yellowjack on Friday 5th February 22:25