Hillsborough Inquest

Author
Discussion

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
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saaby93 said:
Anyone have a summary of what Laliga and V8 fetler are arguing about?
Nawt worth mithern' over.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
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MrBarry123 said:
Given the ongoing investigation, I find it quite repulsive that the BBC have chosen to track David Duckenfield to the U.S. and ask him for comment; even though he [Duckenfield] has declined to comment on the situation numerous times.
I failed to see why that was necessary or of any benefit to anyone.

V8 Fettler said:
It is you who has descended to dissecting sentences, not I. Unfortunately, your failure to see the bigger picture and consider possible scenarios is endemic in insular organisations where senior management are in the command bunker.
Whether I quote everything you've written or those two sentences, it doesn't change the meaning of this no matter how much you try to distract, divert and focus upon anything to avoid what you actually said. You started expanding and making up as you went along after this:

V8 Fettler said:
The timing of the announcement of GMP's investigation into Copley is unlikely, GMP could see the likely path of succession for SYP and yet they appear to ambush SYP and the SYP PCC.
V8 Fettler said:
GMP could have ensured that any likely actions by Buttress would not have undermined the SYP / SYP PCC merely by flagging the risk to the SYP / SYP PCC at the earliest opportunity, thereby controlling risk in the event of damage limitation.
Again, you assume there was anything to flag and that the PCC / SYP were not aware of all the information.

You do like to make unfounded assumptions i.e. make it up as you go along.

Do you understand what "knowns" and "unknowns" are?

V8 Fettler said:
Once again, you appear to be attempting to control the content of my posts on PH, do you find that your desire for control becomes particularly overwhelming at times?
Distracting and diverting once more.

V8 Fettler said:
Best information in whose opinion? Am I happy with the BBC? Not for many years, but I will continue to post links as I see fit (within PH rules of course), even though - heaven forbid - the content of the links might contradict your view. Hope that's OK with you.
Distracting and diverting again because you tried to discredit the same source you were happy to use when it didn't say what you wanted.

saaby93 said:
Anyone have a summary of what Laliga and V8 fetler are arguing about?
Basically, V8 likes to preach about who should have done what and what did and didn't happen when he has a snippet of information. Then when he gets caught out like when he didn't do basic research on something (PCC knowing or not knowing something) he'll do anything to try and worm out of it even if it means having blatant double standards.

Most people save such worthless speculation for the pub / their mates. That's if they realise it's speculation in the first place, naturally.

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
It is you who has descended to dissecting sentences, not I. Unfortunately, your failure to see the bigger picture and consider possible scenarios is endemic in insular organisations where senior management are in the command bunker.
Whether I quote everything you've written or those two sentences, it doesn't change the meaning of this no matter how much you try to distract, divert and focus upon anything to avoid what you actually said. You started expanding and making up as you went along after this:

V8 Fettler said:
The timing of the announcement of GMP's investigation into Copley is unlikely, GMP could see the likely path of succession for SYP and yet they appear to ambush SYP and the SYP PCC.
V8 Fettler said:
GMP could have ensured that any likely actions by Buttress would not have undermined the SYP / SYP PCC merely by flagging the risk to the SYP / SYP PCC at the earliest opportunity, thereby controlling risk in the event of damage limitation.
Again, you assume there was anything to flag and that the PCC / SYP were not aware of all the information.

You do like to make unfounded assumptions i.e. make it up as you go along.

Do you understand what "knowns" and "unknowns" are?

V8 Fettler said:
Once again, you appear to be attempting to control the content of my posts on PH, do you find that your desire for control becomes particularly overwhelming at times?
Distracting and diverting once more.

V8 Fettler said:
Best information in whose opinion? Am I happy with the BBC? Not for many years, but I will continue to post links as I see fit (within PH rules of course), even though - heaven forbid - the content of the links might contradict your view. Hope that's OK with you.
Distracting and diverting again because you tried to discredit the same source you were happy to use when it didn't say what you wanted.
Divert from what? Hillsborough has highlighted incompetence at senior management level within the police, the SYP PCC and other organisations; one aspect of this incompetence is the failure of all parties to the investigation into Copley to effectively manage damage limitation. This aspect was demonstrated by Copley standing down after one day in the CC post.

Copley's evident unsuitability for the CC position should have been flagged at the earliest opportunity. Her failure to remain in the CC position for more than 24 hours demonstrates that this didn't occur. If the SYP PCC was aware of all the relevant information surrounding the Copley investigation then he wouldn't have appointed Copley to the CC position, only for her to step down after one day. The risks were demonstrably too high.

Is "distracting and diverting" your new "bingo" phrase when you've run out of reasoned arguements? Again, my view differs from yours; you need to accept that's what happens on internet forums, which can be difficult if you expect to be in control.

Command bunker mentality at a senior level within the police was one of the primary drivers leading to the Hillsborough fatalities, it concerns me that the command bunker mentality still clearly prevails with some.

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
saaby93 said:
Anyone have a summary of what Laliga and V8 fetler are arguing about?
Nawt worth mithern' over.
Incompetence at senior management level within the police (and other organisations) is certainly worth "mithering over".

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
V8 Fettler said:
If the SYP PCC was aware of all the relevant information surrounding the Copley investigation then he wouldn't have appointed Copley to the CC position, only for her to step down after one day. The risks were demonstrably too high.
Wouldn't he? How do you know?

You don't. You have no idea. You've once again made it up.

Do you not find it embarrassing you don’t recognise this?

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
If the SYP PCC was aware of all the relevant information surrounding the Copley investigation then he wouldn't have appointed Copley to the CC position, only for her to step down after one day. The risks were demonstrably too high.
Wouldn't he? How do you know?

You don't. You have no idea. You've once again made it up.

Do you not find it embarrassing you don’t recognise this?
Because the risks were demonstrably too high, as demonstrated by Copley's one single day in post. Have I not already said that? The facts undermine your position.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
So how does that mean you know he wasn't in possession of all the facts at the time of appointment in which he later made his decisions upon? How do you know what he would and wouldn't have done in specific circumstances?

The answer is you don't, you just make it up as you go along.

I don't think you understand the difference between knowns and unknowns.

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
La Liga said:
So how does that mean you know he wasn't in possession of all the facts at the time of appointment in which he later made his decisions upon? How do you know what he would and wouldn't have done in specific circumstances?

The answer is you don't, you just make it up as you go along.

I don't think you understand the difference between knowns and unknowns.
You're moving the goalposts. Are you referring to the SYP PCC's awareness of the inquiry into Copley immediately preceding her appointment, or are you referring to the SYP PCC's awareness of the status of that inquiry immediately preceding his decision to suspend Crompton?

I'll not be drawn into a slanging match by replying to your last two sentences.

iSore

4,011 posts

143 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
Nawt worth mithern' over.
+1

I'm glad I have a life!

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
V8 Fettler said:
You're moving the goalposts. Are you referring to the SYP PCC's awareness of the inquiry into Copley immediately preceding her appointment, or are you referring to the SYP PCC's awareness of the status of that inquiry immediately preceding his decision to suspend Crompton?
It makes no difference, you have no idea what information was known at what stages and if any information changed between any of the stages.




V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Saturday 21st May 2016
quotequote all
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
You're moving the goalposts. Are you referring to the SYP PCC's awareness of the inquiry into Copley immediately preceding her appointment, or are you referring to the SYP PCC's awareness of the status of that inquiry immediately preceding his decision to suspend Crompton?
It makes no difference, you have no idea what information was known at what stages and if any information changed between any of the stages.
That's your first post on this thread that is completely irrational with no reference to fact. On that basis, shall we leave it there?

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Thursday 6th October 2016
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I don't know how this will "help the process" ...

Bettison has already given his evidence at the inquests

All proceeds go to charity. Apparently.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...

Edited by Red 4 on Friday 7th October 00:03

hepy

1,260 posts

139 months

Friday 7th October 2016
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
I don't know how this will "help the process" ...

Bettison has already given his evidence at the inquests

All proceeds go to charity. Apparently.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...

Edited by Red 4 on Friday 7th October 00:03
No doubt it will be advertised in 'The S*n'.

Massive error in judgement from him, but not surprising given some of the police's complete lack of morals in the eighties.

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
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"A decision on whether individuals and organisations will face criminal charges over the Hillsborough disaster will be announced later."

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/am...

Ayahuasca

27,427 posts

278 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
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Hopefully there will be no charges. Not sure if any good could possibly come out of them.

If there are charges, expect the civil suits shortly afterwards...

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
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Ayahuasca said:
Hopefully there will be no charges. Not sure if any good could possibly come out of them.
Charges for incompetence would serve no purpose.
Charges for lies/corruption/cover-ups (if guilt established) would serve to persuade future generations to tell the truth.

Ayahuasca said:
If there are charges, expect the civil suits shortly afterwards...
If there are convictions, certainly.

CoupeTeddy

142 posts

97 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
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David Duckenfield charged with 95 counts of manslaughter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40...

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
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gooner1

10,223 posts

178 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
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The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) must apply to the High Court to lift an order imposed after he was prosecuted privately in 1999, which must be removed before he can be charged.

How likely, or not is the above to succeed?

Aretnap

1,643 posts

150 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
gooner1 said:
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) must apply to the High Court to lift an order imposed after he was prosecuted privately in 1999, which must be removed before he can be charged.

How likely, or not is the above to succeed?
Dunno - but this explains some of the issues. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr...