Hillsborough Inquest

[Gandahar]

Interesting how things have turned about over all the years, from the fans being totally to blame to the police being entirely to blame.

I'm hedging my bets and saying the system was a bit old fashioned from every angle and therefore to blame.

Thanks to progress going to a football match nowadays is a lot safer and more enjoyable, you don't even have to sing "you're going home in a Rochdale ambulance" if you don't want to, or too busy staring at your phone.

Ah the good new days !


Mind you the entry fee was only £3 and the chips that warmed your hands were cooked in beef dripping ... mmm,

[Red 4]

Phil Dicky said:

From what I've heard, read and seen it appears Duckenfield was a man promoted beyond his abilities.

Maybe. He certainly wasn't capable on the day.
He was described as more of an academic than a hands on leader - very different to his predecessor Brian Mole.
Duckenfield was not well liked by the rank and file from what I have heard.
One officer described him as "Arrogant, obnoxious. A bully".

[Red 4]

Gandahar said:

Interesting how things have turned about over all the years, from the fans being totally to blame to the police being entirely to blame.

The police were not entirely to blame. Try to keep up.

[Gandahar]

Red 4 said:

Phil Dicky said:

From what I've heard, read and seen it appears Duckenfield was a man promoted beyond his abilities.

Maybe. He certainly wasn't capable on the day.
He was described as more of an academic than a hands on leader - very different to his predecessor Brian Mole.
Duckenfield was not well liked by the rank and file from what I have heard.
One officer described him as "Arrogant, obnoxious. A bully".

In nearly the 20's does this actually matter now though apart from a historical perspective?

[Gandahar]

Red 4 said:

Gandahar said:

Interesting how things have turned about over all the years, from the fans being totally to blame to the police being entirely to blame.

The police were not entirely to blame. Try to keep up.

Cheers for the update. Noted. You get the point though about the system?

[Red 4]

Gandahar said:

In nearly the 20's does this actually matter now though apart from a historical perspective?

One of the biggest cover-ups and miscarriages of justice ever should just have been left alone ?
Don't think this was just about football. It wasn't.

[Gandahar]

Red 4 said:

Gandahar said:

In nearly the 20's does this actually matter now though apart from a historical perspective?

One of the biggest cover-ups and miscarriages of justice ever should just have been left alone ?
Don't think this was just about football. It wasn't.

But the Bloody Sunday cover up was even worse, and that has become more historically looked at now than this.

It's not a case of leaving alone, but why the continuing layman fascination.

[Red 4]

Gandahar said:

Red 4 said:

Gandahar said:

In nearly the 20's does this actually matter now though apart from a historical perspective?

One of the biggest cover-ups and miscarriages of justice ever should just have been left alone ?
Don't think this was just about football. It wasn't.

But the Bloody Sunday cover up was even worse, and that has become more historically looked at now than this.

It's not a case of leaving alone, but why the continuing layman fascination.

I take your point although I'm not sure if the Bloody Sunday events were worse.
That's a matter of opinion, I suppose.

The Hillsborough saga is ongoing. More trials next year.
The events are still current from a legal ( and moral ) perspective.

[Gandahar]

Red 4 said:

Gandahar said:

Red 4 said:

Gandahar said:

In nearly the 20's does this actually matter now though apart from a historical perspective?

One of the biggest cover-ups and miscarriages of justice ever should just have been left alone ?
Don't think this was just about football. It wasn't.

But the Bloody Sunday cover up was even worse, and that has become more historically looked at now than this.

It's not a case of leaving alone, but why the continuing layman fascination.

I take your point although I'm not sure if the Bloody Sunday events were worse.
That's a matter of opinion, I suppose.

The Hillsborough saga is ongoing. More trials next year.
The events are still current from a legal ( and moral ) perspective.

Bloody Sunday was worse because the Para support company did a shoot to kill policy as events unfolded, deliberate rather than here where unintentional .

Fair point about onging though. A link between the two of course as individuals being brought to book. On Bloody Sunday it has been lower ranks compared to here.

I still think that finding individuals guilty all this time later is difficult as we are no longer living in those times and lose that perspective.

Have a nice weekend Red4 !

[Penelope Stopit]

Gandahar said:

But the Bloody Sunday cover up was even worse, and that has become more historically looked at now than this.

It's not a case of leaving alone, but why the continuing layman fascination.

Don't know the outcome of this but......

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/12/bl...

[Gandahar]

Penelope Stopit said:

Gandahar said:

But the Bloody Sunday cover up was even worse, and that has become more historically looked at now than this.

It's not a case of leaving alone, but why the continuing layman fascination.

Don't know the outcome of this but......

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/12/bl...

To be fair there are some interesting connections between both events and subsequent happenings in the law courts but I didn't mean to get the thread off topic, it was just my thoughts on a Saturday.

[JNW1]

Red 4 said:

JNW1 said:

Thank you for giving such an honest account - great credit to you that you feel able to speak so openly about that awful day.

Your comment above sums it up very well for me. There were a whole host of things that went wrong that day and, while David Duckenfield was far from blameless, IMO it's not reasonable to try to hold him solely responsible for the 96 deaths.

JNW - Nobody is holding Duckenfield solely responsible.
There were a catalogue of errors, omissions and failings. Nobody is suggesting otherwise.
However, Duckenfield's failings were not limited just to the opening of Exit Gate C and failing to close the tunnel.
His failings go much, much further than that. I have some sympathy for Duckenfield but it is very limited, if I'm honest.
Some people who knew him ( police officers ) have been scathing in their criticism of Duckenfield - likewise LJ Taylor and many others who examined the events of the day in detail. Many have been much more critical of Duckenfield than I have been on this thread.

Edited by Red 4 on Saturday 7th December 12:36

But at the recent court case wasn't it only Duckenfield who was on trial for manslaughter? I carry no torch for the bloke and his actions and decisions certainly contributed significantly to what happened; however, it does seem to me that he's been singled-out and made a bit of a scapegoat and I don't think that's right either - as you say, there were a lot of other things that went wrong that day apart from his decision making.

[Ayahuasca]

Red 4 said:

Gandahar said:

Interesting how things have turned about over all the years, from the fans being totally to blame to the police being entirely to blame.

The police were not entirely to blame. Try to keep up.

There were multiple failings and causes, all of which had to click into place to produce the awful result. Same with most disasters.

[Ructions]

31 years ago, on April 15th 1989, 96 ordinary men, women and children went to watch a game of football. They never came home.

They'll Never Walk Alone

[Don Roque]

The truth of the matter will never be known. I read an interesting statement the other day, that in a daily basis we have ten 'Hillsboroughs' through Covid-19 deaths and we just shrug it off. I suppose the two are not comparable. I had always wondered why there was never a serious look into these matters and the drunken hooliganism that surrounded the tragedy. I feel as time goes on, that becomes less important.

[Drumroll]

Don Roque said:

The truth of the matter will never be known. I read an interesting statement the other day, that in a daily basis we have ten 'Hillsboroughs' through Covid-19 deaths and we just shrug it off. I suppose the two are not comparable. I had always wondered why there was never a serious look into these matters and the drunken hooliganism that surrounded the tragedy. I feel as time goes on, that becomes less important.

What do you mean there wasn't a serious look into this tradagy? Have you forgotten the inquest that took over a year to be heard.