Man in Scotland arrested over dog's 'Nazi salute'.

[andymadmak]

Globs said:

strange things

United States Holocaust memorial Museum said:

Three key perpetrators gave evidence directly related to the Holocaust: Hermann Göring, the highest official of the Nazi state tried at Nuremberg, testified openly and frankly about the persecution of German Jews from the rise of the Nazi party to power in 1933 until the outbreak of war in 1939; Otto Ohlendorf testified directly about his unit, Einsatzgruppe D, killing 90,000 Jews in the southern Ukraine in 1941; and the commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, testified frankly about the gassing of more than a million Jews at the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center during the war. All three claimed that they carried out the legitimate orders of the state.

From here: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=...

Yes, yes, I know you're going to say that the words of the victors cannot be taken, but since the Nuremberg trials were all filmed, one might assume that the statements referenced above are all available on film?

Do you really imagine that denying something like the Holocaust helps the Palestinian cause?

[andymadmak]

otolith said:

The behaviour of the Nazis may explain the hawkishness of the Israelis, but it doesn't excuse it.

Nor does disapproval of the actions of the Israeli government justify Holocaust denial. The two things are completely unrelated. Whether Israeli policy is right or wrong has nothing to do with whether the Holocaust happened.

100% this

[ape x]

It is interesting, the American white ayran race groups are still obsessed with Nazi symbols and obsessed with the 'Jews' and very, over here we are more fixated on Muslims, very few UK white groups use Nazi symbols.
The American white power lot still have agendas with Muslims and still do the Black hating thing of course but all their insignia is still slavishly in honor to Nazi's.
It is pretty rare now to get people saying "gas the jews" so openly I suppose.
Being anti Jew is very off limits in the UK so he should of picked his target better.

[irocfan]

oh dear Lord

[ape x]

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

[otolith]

ape x said:

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

That's a bit of a straw man, you don't have to defend what the man said to consider it wrong to prosecute him for it.

[ape x]

otolith said:

ape x said:

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

That's a bit of a straw man, you don't have to defend what the man said to consider it wrong to prosecute him for it.

So if this had been a Muslim bloke he'd be getting defended on here then yes?

[Russian Troll Bot]

ape x said:

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

You can never have complete freedom of speech, otherwise people would be able to make threats or slander with impunity. People still have a right to be offended or find something distasteful, but when you start jailing people for it you are on a very dark path. Not sure what specific incident you refer to, but there is a big difference between annoying your girlfriend by getting it to raise its paw when you say "gas the Jews", and stating on a forum or street corner that we should gas the Jews.

[ape x]

Russian Troll Bot said:

ape x said:

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

You can never have complete freedom of speech, otherwise people would be able to make threats or slander with impunity. People still have a right to be offended or find something distasteful, but when you start jailing people for it you are on a very dark path. Not sure what specific incident you refer to, but there is a big difference between annoying your girlfriend by getting it to raise its paw when you say "gas the Jews", and stating on a forum or street corner that we should gas the Jews.

Agreed, but he put it on youtube though, arguably worse than saying it on a street corner as in how many people it could reach.
I imagine haymarket would remove a video like this from this forum so why be part of a forum which doesn't allow freedom of speech?
Having report buttons and mods and ability to ban people is very 1984. Yet here we all are....

[Not-The-Messiah]

ape x said:

otolith said:

ape x said:

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

That's a bit of a straw man, you don't have to defend what the man said to consider it wrong to prosecute him for it.

So if this had been a Muslim bloke he'd be getting defended on here then yes?

First off with the labour MP vs this guy one is just some bloke on the internet the other is a MP who is supposed to run and guide our nation. And I believe people were not asking for him to be arrested and imprisoned for it just sacked.

As for the muslim or who ever says something offensive as long as its not directly threatening or inciting violence then yes I personally would defend their right not to be arrested and imprisoned for it . I may not agree with what they say and tell them they are a complete moron and argue their point but that's it.

[Patrick Bateman]

ape x said:

Agreed, but he put it on youtube though, arguably worse than saying it on a street corner as in how many people it could reach.
I imagine haymarket would remove a video like this from this forum so why be part of a forum which doesn't allow freedom of speech?
Having report buttons and mods and ability to ban people is very 1984. Yet here we all are....

Bit of an odd comparison. Forums come with whatever rules their owners dictate, you can use another forum if you wish.

Not quite the bloody state deciding something is 'grossly offensive' and therefore criminal though, is it?

[Russian Troll Bot]

Patrick Bateman said:

ape x said:

Agreed, but he put it on youtube though, arguably worse than saying it on a street corner as in how many people it could reach.
I imagine haymarket would remove a video like this from this forum so why be part of a forum which doesn't allow freedom of speech?
Having report buttons and mods and ability to ban people is very 1984. Yet here we all are....

Bit of an odd comparison. Forums come with whatever rules their owners dictate, you can use another forum if you wish.

Not quite the bloody state deciding something is 'grossly offensive' and therefore criminal though, is it?

Would the uploader have been banned if he posted it here? Possibly, only the mods could answer that. However the only way to have a forum with true freedom of speech would be to never remove posts or ban users. So you would have to allow all forms of racist and pornographic material, spam, virus links and slander to be posted. There is also a world of difference between a private company denying you access to a forum, and the judicial system deciding you have committed a criminal offence, with the possibility of jail time.

[Levin]

Globs said:

There are a lot of double standards going on, I recall the story of the Canadian lady who got arrested in germany:
http://www.fitzhugh.ca/video-denying-holocaust-cau...
Simply because she couldn't find any evidence of the gas chambers or any written evidence that they worked or were planned, despite the germans diligently documenting everything else they did. For such a large operation it's still a puzzle how they were able to hide it so well, and some of the numbers are very puzzling too.

I'm still not sure about some of the myths about the nazi regime (they also didn't call themselves nazis - that was invented after the war IIRC), like the book burning. I don't understand why a nation who valued technology, science, art, music and literature would burn books - that makes no sense at all, so I wonder if they did burn any, and if so - which ones? How did they make all of those planes, jets, rockets, trains and why did they collect all that art if they burnt all the books? It's not as if it was all on computer was it?

History is written by the winners so we can't be sure of the real german story, any more than we can be sure of Saddam's or Gadaffi's crimes - crimes they were never tried for incidentally.. It's a bit like the US/Israel op in Syria - we're now hearing about all the stuff that we'd not be hearing about if that had gone as planned.

Your posts leave me wondering if you consider yourself a Holocaust revisionist. This copy of the New York Times from 1933 reports on book burnings in Berlin, which targeted 'un-German' literature. While there's a comprehensive list of authors targeted on Wikipedia, it should come as no surprise that Erich Marie Remarque (who wrote 'All Quiet on the Western Front') was among them, as was Henri Barbusse. Video footage of book burning still exists, and Goebbels spoke to the crowd at the event in Berlin's Opernplatz. There's a transcript of that speech included with this video.

As for why they burned books, I refer back to the phrasing used in the New York Times article: 'un-German'. Concepts outside of the Nazi vision of 'German' were obvious targets for destruction. Remarque and Barbusse both wrote pacifistic stories about WWI, having both served in the trenches. Neither story glorifies the conflict. You are also correct that the books destroyed were not backed up on computer - which was the idea. The book burnings were meant as a death knell to opposing viewpoints, and it is for precisely that reason that the concept leaves such a bitter taste in one's mouth.

David Olère worked as a Sonderkommando in Auschwitz; if you can find some of his drawings they hopefully clarify how the gas chambers were intended to work. If not, take a look at the Auschwitz and Hoecker albums, taken in Auschwitz-Birkenau. There are also the Sonderkommando photographs, secretly taken near the gas chambers in August 1944.

Really do try and read these things. There is such an enormous trove of evidence of attempts at extermination and experimentation that it seems more plausible as having been real than an elaborate conspiracy spanning generations with nobody ever breaking character.

Anyway, more pugs.

[rambo19]

JLC25 said:

Do I think that a man training his pug to make Nazi salutes is funny? No.

Do I think that bringing Tommy Robinson with you in defense of you NOT inciting racial hatred is a daft move? Yes

Can Nazi jokes be funny? Yes

Should this man go to prison simply for aligning himself with a divisive person and filming an unfunny joke? No

We're in strange times - a quick go through twitter, and you can surround yourself in an echo chamber of propaganda, lies and hate speech. The are people on Twitter (both sides of the fence) who are saying things that could be seen much more as hate speech in the eyes of the public. It seems bizarre this man is the example the police have decided to set.

Tommy robinson was the only person ready to scream and shout to raise this issue though.

[anonymous-user]

Russian Troll Bot said:

Would the uploader have been banned if he posted it here? Possibly, only the mods could answer that. However the only way to have a forum with true freedom of speech would be to never remove posts or ban users. So you would have to allow all forms of racist and pornographic material, spam, virus links and slander to be posted. There is also a world of difference between a private company denying you access to a forum, and the judicial system deciding you have committed a criminal offence, with the possibility of jail time.

Well said. PH is under no obligation to be a bastion of free speech and has to protect it's self from falling on the wrong side of an overzealous judicial system.

[otolith]

ape x said:

otolith said:

ape x said:

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

That's a bit of a straw man, you don't have to defend what the man said to consider it wrong to prosecute him for it.

So if this had been a Muslim bloke he'd be getting defended on here then yes?

I can’t speak for anyone else, but my position on prosecuting people for making jokes isn’t predicated on their race or religion - is yours?

[mickytruelove]

I have watched his videos on youtube for a long time now and reading the news today makes we wonder if anyone involved has actually watched the video. He doe not tell people "viewers" to gas the jews, he says that to make the dog to the trick. He explains at the start of the video the reason he was doing it.

If i had the the spare time i would be going to the police station to report every stand up comedian on tv doing edgy jokes as hate crime. At the moment it seems like the "i'm offended" group who cry about everything under the sun are keen on this, what happens with normal people who understand the world does not revolve around their beliefs start to play the game of reporting "hate crime".

The police will have to pander to every report and simply ban everything, or realise how stupid the situation has become.

[Boydie88]

ape x said:

It is interesting, the American white ayran race groups are still obsessed with Nazi symbols and obsessed with the 'Jews' and very, over here we are more fixated on Muslims, very few UK white groups use Nazi symbols.
The American white power lot still have agendas with Muslims and still do the Black hating thing of course but all their insignia is still slavishly in honor to Nazi's.
It is pretty rare now to get people saying "gas the jews" so openly I suppose.
Being anti Jew is very off limits in the UK so he should of picked his target better.

The target of the joke was Nazis ffs.

ape x said:

Agreed, but he put it on youtube though, arguably worse than saying it on a street corner as in how many people it could reach.
I imagine haymarket would remove a video like this from this forum so why be part of a forum which doesn't allow freedom of speech?
Having report buttons and mods and ability to ban people is very 1984. Yet here we all are....

It wasn't even classed to break YouTube's guidelines.

[ofcorsa]

ape x said:

If freedom of speech is so important then is nothing off limits then? Genuine question.

Also if this chap had been a Labour MP or a Muslim would the PH masses be so quick to jump to the defense? Wasn't there a big hoo haa about some Labour MP expressing views about Israel and the Jews. Where was their freedom of speech protection, or the PH seal of approval?

There is a huge difference between criticizing what someone says Vs prosecuting them for saying it.

[dromong]

mickytruelove said:

I have watched his videos on youtube for a long time now and reading the news today makes we wonder if anyone involved has actually watched the video. He doe not tell people "viewers" to gas the jews, he says that to make the dog to the trick. He explains at the start of the video the reason he was doing it.

If i had the the spare time i would be going to the police station to report every stand up comedian on tv doing edgy jokes as hate crime. At the moment it seems like the "i'm offended" group who cry about everything under the sun are keen on this, what happens with normal people who understand the world does not revolve around their beliefs start to play the game of reporting "hate crime".

The police will have to pander to every report and simply ban everything, or realise how stupid the situation has become.

Maybe this is one of the reason why the type of crimes that really affect people ( like housebreaking , muggings, robberies, car theft )
are now hardly even worth reporting, the Police are too busy dealing with people posting silly videos on Youtube.