How do we think EU negotiations will go?

[Murph7355]

dazwalsh said:

What are our thoughts on our chief negotiator David Davies? At first I thought he lacked the authority to be able to waltz in and tell them what's what but his approach and openness about how the talks are progressing are quite positive I think, and picking up on his claim of being confident of a trade deal, if he can somehow negotiate that without too much compromise I reckon that's as good as it gets.

Quietly confident would be my judgement so far and a lot of the chest pumping from both sides with bold statements about who was getting what has quietened down somewhat, allowing for some constructive progress.

Would also be good to hear from EU countries on how they are viewing brexit so far.

He strikes me as calm, considered and affable. But I will bet that he knows the boundaries and won't step over them.

I like him, and could think of a lot worse to have in the hot seat.

Barnier seems like a decent chap too. Though more prone to emotion on the few times I've seen him. Calmness will "win" in this sort of arrangement.

[Mrr T]

Murph7355 said:

Tryke3 said:

jsf said:

We pay for it anyway, its just a system that allows UK citizens to get treatment in the EU that is then changed back to the UK NHS.

Hopefully when we leave we will start charging EU citizens properly for care they receive through the NHS, rather than the current situation where we don't bother to claw back the costs from the EU, as we should be doing.

So you mean an eu worker who pays taxes will have to have separate health insurance in this country ? I think you have no idea what you are talking about

I think you have no idea what he said, or how the current system works

Our lack of desire to claim back what we can from other member states (as they do from us) isn't down to being in or out of the EU granted. jsf simply noted a desire for our authorities to do so, and that maybe being out of the EU when the costs associated will hopefully become significantly more transparent, will help in that.

I can only see news coverage at the moment. Based on that DD seems only to be referring to the EHIC system. I am not sure that’s really important. What really matters for retirees in the rEU is the S1 system.

Just a point on charging. All (I think) eEU health systems are insurance (government controlled) based. This means the hospitals have systems in place to charge the insurance provider. In the UK with our odd free at the point delivery system hospitals are not set up with charging systems.

[Burwood]

Tony, surely you're thrilled that your family is set to be given all the rights you were worried about. That was your biggest concern/gripe. Happy days?

[Murph7355]

Mrr T said:

I can only see news coverage at the moment. Based on that DD seems only to be referring to the EHIC system. I am not sure that’s really important. What really matters for retirees in the rEU is the S1 system....

Agree that it's relatively trivial. I imagine picking off the easy stuff first is a good way to start and to try and build momentum.

I don't see the pensioner stuff changing. Our pensioners are too good a source of revenue for the likes of Spain for them to want to jeopardise it.

(It's a good job for those retiring to Spain that I'm not in charge...I'd be taking it off the table myself and precluding anyone commuting state pension payments abroad. If you wish to retire to the sun, do it on your own coin ).

Mrr T said:

...
Just a point on charging. All (I think) eEU health systems are insurance (government controlled) based. This means the hospitals have systems in place to charge the insurance provider. In the UK with our odd free at the point delivery system hospitals are not set up with charging systems.

I agree totally. Changing this would be hugely beneficial across the board IMO. But will never happen. The NHS has become a millstone around our neck.

[turbobloke]

Burwood said:

Tony, surely you're thrilled that your family is set to be given all the rights you were worried about. That was your biggest concern/gripe. Happy days?

Must be. Here's a potential commemorative item, other options are available.

https://www.celebsclothing.com/product_images/e/18...

[KrissKross]

sherbertdip said:

KrissKross said:

sherbertdip said:

I would say about 50% of people i know who voted brexit now believe they made a mistake

Your mum and your cat don't count.

Idiot

Ok sorry for being daft, how many of your friends trade and do business with the EU, if half of your friends think they have made a mistake, why is that, what are their areas of expertise?

[///ajd]

How depressing to hear the (who is he?) immigration minister on C4 news talking & justifying the erosion of EU migrants rights as if its a good thing.

Marching back in time.

[Murph7355]

///ajd said:

How depressing to hear the (who is he?) immigration minister on C4 news talking & justifying the erosion of EU migrants rights as if its a good thing.

Marching back in time.

You are aware we're leaving the EU?

Keeping that in mind (which I know is difficult for you), what part of the "offer" don't you like?

Are you expecting people choosing to live here freely to be able to do so under foreign jurisdiction (EU courts)? Can you identify anywhere else in the world that allows this? Including the EU member states.

Are you expecting EU citizens choosing to live here freely to get different terms and conditions to those of us with full citizenship? Same question as above.

Which "rights" are going to be different to the EU the day we're out? And presumably you feel that we will be forcing people to stay should any rights eventually change?

Having read what the offer was, I'm really not sure what you or les grandes fromages in the EU were expecting. We're leaving.

The only even remotely contentious thing in the whole mix is the cut off date for the 5yr counter. If Mr Barnier gets his skates on and agrees the same position for UK nationals abroad (which I don't believe he has done yet - so who is leaving who hanging here?) I'm sure that can be sorted out quickly. The dates being touted at present make eminent sense (Art50 issuance or actual exit).

[///ajd]

Murph7355 said:

You are aware we're leaving the EU?

Keeping that in mind (which I know is difficult for you), what part of the "offer" don't you like?

Are you expecting people choosing to live here freely to be able to do so under foreign jurisdiction (EU courts)? Can you identify anywhere else in the world that allows this? Including the EU member states.

Are you expecting EU citizens choosing to live here freely to get different terms and conditions to those of us with full citizenship? Same question as above.

Which "rights" are going to be different to the EU the day we're out? And presumably you feel that we will be forcing people to stay should any rights eventually change?

Having read what the offer was, I'm really not sure what you or les grandes fromages in the EU were expecting. We're leaving.

The only even remotely contentious thing in the whole mix is the cut off date for the 5yr counter. If Mr Barnier gets his skates on and agrees the same position for UK nationals abroad (which I don't believe he has done yet - so who is leaving who hanging here?) I'm sure that can be sorted out quickly. The dates being touted at present make eminent sense (Art50 issuance or actual exit).

My point is it is quite stark to see a UK politician talking so proudly about how we're going to make it harder for people to come to the UK, and even when here make it harder for them to bring their family here.

Great Britain? No so much, in my opinion of course.

Of course a slight majority wanted us to do this, so here we are.

Hope you're all enjoying the spectacle.

I worry it is going to seriously dent the attractiveness of the UK as somewhere for talent to boost our economy.

[spaximus]

///ajd said:

Murph7355 said:

You are aware we're leaving the EU?

Keeping that in mind (which I know is difficult for you), what part of the "offer" don't you like?

Are you expecting people choosing to live here freely to be able to do so under foreign jurisdiction (EU courts)? Can you identify anywhere else in the world that allows this? Including the EU member states.

Are you expecting EU citizens choosing to live here freely to get different terms and conditions to those of us with full citizenship? Same question as above.

Which "rights" are going to be different to the EU the day we're out? And presumably you feel that we will be forcing people to stay should any rights eventually change?

Having read what the offer was, I'm really not sure what you or les grandes fromages in the EU were expecting. We're leaving.

The only even remotely contentious thing in the whole mix is the cut off date for the 5yr counter. If Mr Barnier gets his skates on and agrees the same position for UK nationals abroad (which I don't believe he has done yet - so who is leaving who hanging here?) I'm sure that can be sorted out quickly. The dates being touted at present make eminent sense (Art50 issuance or actual exit).

My point is it is quite stark to see a UK politician talking so proudly about how we're going to make it harder for people to come to the UK, and even when here make it harder for them to bring their family here.

Great Britain? No so much, in my opinion of course.

Of course a slight majority wanted us to do this, so here we are.

Hope you're all enjoying the spectacle.

I worry it is going to seriously dent the attractiveness of the UK as somewhere for talent to boost our economy.

I did not hear it as that an neither did many of my staff today who welcomed the clarity she gave. They have no intention of leaving and now have been reassured that as they are already here with over 5 years under their belts they will be able to stay and work and if need be bring dependant relatives over as well. They didn't see it as a backward step at all.

If GB is so bad why do people die trying to get here and why do so many not leave if unhappy?

It is not a spectacle I enjoy but inevitable as the EU are determined to posture and make a lot of noise to deter others.

Your final point, why might that be? Exiting the EU allows us to allow people from around the world we need, not necessarily those who have no skills but see our system of benefits better than at home.

These negotiations are a game played by those in charge, they will say one thing and agree another. The EU know that they need to be able to export to us, we need to be able to export to them. They want us to have free movement of people, we want some control. A lot can happen in the next few months.

[Camoradi]

I do wonder if the whole thing is going to turn into a lengthy charade where the EU play the bad guy to the UK population and it ends up with the UK government coming back to us with a shrug of the shoulders .....

"We know it's a rubbish deal, but these foreign types are bloody impossible to negotiate with ... Tell you what, let's have another referendum and you decide."

repeat until correct result is reached....

[Robertj21a]

Camoradi said:

I do wonder if the whole thing is going to turn into a lengthy charade where the EU play the bad guy to the UK population and it ends up with the UK government coming back to us with a shrug of the shoulders .....

"We know it's a rubbish deal, but these foreign types are bloody impossible to negotiate with ... Tell you what, let's have another referendum and you decide."

repeat until correct result is reached....

Many Brits know only too well that '........these foreign types are bloody impossible to negotiate with' - that's why we want to leave their little club before it collapses in a heap.

If anybody comes back with any idea of re-running the Referendum they'd better be ready for an increased vote for Brexit.

[Rich_W]

Murph7355 said:

He strikes me as calm, considered and affable. But I will bet that he knows the boundaries and won't step over them.

I like him, and could think of a lot worse to have in the hot seat.

Barnier seems like a decent chap too. Though more prone to emotion on the few times I've seen him. Calmness will "win" in this sort of arrangement.

///ajd said:

How depressing to hear the (who is he?) immigration minister on C4 news talking & justifying the erosion of EU migrants rights as if its a good thing.

Marching back in time.

I asked you this question the other day

Sadly because you are a hypocritical you elected NOT to answer! Maybe you missed it!


"NAME ONE RIGHT EU CITIZENS IN THE EU HAVE THAT UK CITIZENS DONT HAVE IN THE UK"

Camoradi said:

I do wonder if the whole thing is going to turn into a lengthy charade where the EU play the bad guy to the UK population and it ends up with the UK government coming back to us with a shrug of the shoulders .....

"We know it's a rubbish deal, but these foreign types are bloody impossible to negotiate with ... Tell you what, let's have another referendum and you decide."

repeat until correct result is reached....

I would expect not that end game, but "impossible to deal with" is maybe not a million miles away


The problem I suspect is that Barnier doesn't actually have much autonomy to decide anything. He (Barnier) strikes me as sensible, as does Davis. They will WANT this to work in the long term, but whereas Davis has a reasonable amount of leeway since he understands what the British people will accept or not.

MB has his orders "not to let the Brits get away with anything". In any other peace time negotiation, our offer is sensible. The EU would haggle about 5 yrs to 4, we'd go "Ok" they d say "European court" we'd say "No, it's our party, same as USA, Thailand, Australia, Russia, Brazil etc". They'd say "Can we at least be present through any court proceedings to offer help our EU citizen, a sort of consular role" and Dave will say "yep that's ok, case by case basis"

And we've sorted 2 things easily. But the EUC positon is and always has been "our way or the high way" and it will make negotiations tough going until they realise it IS a negotiation..

If we do walk away with no deal, the EU will tryh and paint it as the UK failing, but I suspect 2 yrs of being told "no, no, no!" will not play well with the citizens here (get our backs up and maybe sway some remoaners) and possibly irritate EU citizens who like to trade with us.

[Murph7355]

///ajd said:

My point is it is quite stark to see a UK politician talking so proudly about how we're going to make it harder for people to come to the UK, and even when here make it harder for them to bring their family here.

Great Britain? No so much, in my opinion of course.

Of course a slight majority wanted us to do this, so here we are.

Hope you're all enjoying the spectacle.

I worry it is going to seriously dent the attractiveness of the UK as somewhere for talent to boost our economy.

All the UK politicians are doing is making it the same for everyone irrespective of which part of the world they come from. If you have the right skills, you'll come in. If you do not, you won't be able to. A number who came under the EU pretext are being given a grace period. But we control it.

For all but 25yrs or so of our history this was the case. And no other nations on earth have such a "freedom" other than the 28 members of the EU. It's a ridiculously unnecessary political construct. There is no spectacle other than us reverting back to how every other nation handles its affairs. We are exiting a failed experiment.

People will still want to come here. They came before 1973, 1975 and 1992. They'll kept coming after last June, this March and will keep doing so after March 2019. I don't believe people came here because we were part of the EU. They won't stop coming because we no longer are.

[nickfrog]

Robertj21a said:

Many Brits know only too well that '........these foreign types are bloody impossible to negotiate with' - that's why we want to leave their little club before it collapses in a heap.

Bloody foreigners, basically.

[anonymous-user]

Very sad that tens of millions of British who have had an EU passport since birth, may have to give it up for the Little Englander version instead.
Unless the EU make some kind of grand gesture & let them choose EU passport instead? Perhaps for an annual subscription.
That would be a good idea, dual EU & British passport for those who want to retain the choice to travel & work in EU.
A win for EU to attract the best of British talent & conversely damage Britain even more. Win win for them.

Could be some interesting developments for sure

[anonymous-user]

Jimboka said:

Very sad that tens of millions of British who have had an EU passport since birth, may have to give it up for the Little Englander version instead.
Unless the EU make some kind of grand gesture & let them choose EU passport instead? Perhaps for an annual subscription.
That would be a good idea, dual EU & British passport for those who want to retain the choice to travel & work in EU.
A win for EU to attract the best of British talent & conversely damage Britain even more. Win win for them.

Could be some interesting developments for sure

You have a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Passport if you are a British citizen.

It is the United Kingdom that provides your visa and consulate services, it is the United Kingdom that protects you when abroad.

No British Citizen has ever held an EU passport from birth, the EU does not issue passports for UK citizens. I suggest you read your passports contents, it is the Queen who requests safe passage and assistance, not some piss head in Brussels.

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

My point is it is quite stark to see a UK politician talking so proudly about how we're going to make it harder for people to come to the UK, and even when here make it harder for them to bring their family here.

Great Britain? No so much, in my opinion of course.

Of course a slight majority wanted us to do this, so here we are.

Hope you're all enjoying the spectacle.

I worry it is going to seriously dent the attractiveness of the UK as somewhere for talent to boost our economy.

You are still unable to process this controlled immigration thing, its not racist, its not backwards, it's a fundamental requirement for planned and sustainable infrastructure and social cohesion. This is why the vast majority of the world exercises this system.

What the UK has offered is giving EU citizens who have made the UK their home equal rights to a UK citizen, subject to the EU countries reciprocating. I would expect very few EU citizens would argue that isn't a fair offer.

Lets see what the EU offers UK citizens residing in the EU.

[Cobnapint]

Nobody in their right mind would expect to travel to another country have their citizens rights controlled by a court back home.

It just goes to show how far 'gone' the EU commission are with resoect to their superstate ideology.

[tescorank]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brussels-r...

[i]"Brussels negotiators yesterday rejected detailed government proposals setting out residency rights for European Union citizens after Brexit.

Michel Barnier, the EU’s lead negotiator, demanded exactly the same rights for European citizens as under existing free movement rules.

“EU goal on citizens’ rights: same level of protection as in EU law,” he said. “More ambition, clarity and guarantees needed than in today’s UK position.”

The dismissal of the 15-page proposal, which goes into far greater detail than a four-page EU offer published on June 12, is likely to herald tough negotiations over the summer.

Officials highlighted three issues: discrimination between EU migrants before and after a cut-off date, reduced family unification rights and Britain’s rejection of the European Court of Justice as the agreement’s enforcer"[/i]

Why in 2, 10 or 20 years, if people are in the UK aren't they UK citizens with loyalty to the UK, not an European country they have rejected to live in UK? Why does the EU feel it needs to nanny them after so many years? Furthermore, if the we are is so bad then why would any EU citizen want to stay anyway?