Discussion
BIANCO said:
gothatway said:
So Germany is finally achieving hegemony over the vast majority of Europe. Just that pesky island nation and their pals across the pond not playing ball (oh and the big bear to the east). Deja vu all over again.
Was thinking the same, let them carry on down there disasterous path as usual driven by the delusional arrogance. At lest the English speaking world seems to be waking up at last and realising we've allowed some to make horrible decisions for us. I just hope it's not to late. IMO we're heading towards pre-WWII levels of of f
k-upedness- Europe being provoked from all sides sponsoring internal turmoil whilst everyone else looks on or throws fuel on the fire. The EU may have faults, but I'm not sure anyone has come up with a better idea for keeping the place from being torn/tearing itself apart every few decades.glazbagun said:
Looks to me like we've abandoned Europe, not the other way around. Putins pal Trump not mentioning article 5 and generally dissing NATO, the UK leaving the EU. Germany hasn't achieved hegemony, they've been handed it by us. And now Europe is going to need to face up to an aggressive Russia, a headless (at best) USA to the west an indifferent UK to the north and an Islamic dictator to the south.
IMO we're heading towards pre-WWII levels of of fk-upedness- Europe being provoked from all sides sponsoring internal turmoil whilst everyone else looks on or throws fuel on the fire. The EU may have faults, but I'm not sure anyone has come up with a better idea for keeping the place from being torn/tearing itself apart every few decades.
Perhaps they should have been a bit nicer to us as well as been a bit more upfront / honest about where they wanted to take us.....I wouldn't have changed my mind which was made up many years ago but think the result may have been different if they didn't do the lies and bullying......unfortunately for them we can just about handle this behaviour from our own politicians as we can vote them out - eventually..........not so for the unelected (generally failed in their own countries) EU bureaucrats or Mrs Merkel.IMO we're heading towards pre-WWII levels of of f
k-upedness- Europe being provoked from all sides sponsoring internal turmoil whilst everyone else looks on or throws fuel on the fire. The EU may have faults, but I'm not sure anyone has come up with a better idea for keeping the place from being torn/tearing itself apart every few decades.So now we are getting into our lifeboat and Brexiting the EU, IMO, only has itself to blame.
ps We are leaving the EU not Europe......but you already knew that didn't you.
gothatway said:
So Germany is finally achieving hegemony over the vast majority of Europe. Just that pesky island nation and their pals across the pond not playing ball (oh and the big bear to the east). Deja vu all over again.
If only we were man enough to fight back.Cringe thread delivers.
glazbagun said:
And now Europe is going to need to face up to an aggressive Russia
I think you'll find that Russia thinks it's the West which has been being aggressive towards them, what with both the EU and NATO expanding aggressively into what Russia considers to be their rightful sphere of influence. Hence Ukraine.alfie2244 said:
Perhaps they should have been a bit nicer to us as well as been a bit more upfront / honest about where they wanted to take us.....I wouldn't have changed my mind which was made up many years ago but think the result may have been different if they didn't do the lies and bullying......unfortunately for them we can just about handle this behaviour from our own politicians as we can vote them out - eventually..........not so for the unelected (generally failed in their own countries) EU bureaucrats or Mrs Merkel.
So now we are getting into our lifeboat and Brexiting the EU, IMO, only has itself to blame.
ps We are leaving the EU not Europe......but you already knew that didn't you.
IIRC we've had a veto on most important EU changes but have rarely ever used it. Way I see it, it's a bit hypocritical to moan about growing German influence in Europe when our decision to leave the EU has been the biggest power shift to them (and away from us) in decades.So now we are getting into our lifeboat and Brexiting the EU, IMO, only has itself to blame.
ps We are leaving the EU not Europe......but you already knew that didn't you.
Let them get on with it. If it fractures, let it do so naturally without trying to pull it apart. If it becomes Brussels Land, we've removed the biggest political obstacle.
I know we have left the EU. That's why I said "leave the EU".
Can't quote the post re:Russia, but yes I'm aware that different countries will have different PoV's, but I was talking about Germany's.
Semi-relatedly, chatting to a Finnish mate, the country has twice (via referendum) voted not to join NATO. The main reasons being (a) not pissing off Russia and (b) the belief that they can't rely on the States/Uk/NATO to come to their aid regardless of what the treaty may say.
I reckon Merkel/Macron are probably thinking the same thing.
glazbagun said:
IIRC we've had a veto on most important EU changes but have rarely ever used it. Way I see it, it's a bit hypocritical to moan about growing German influence in Europe when our decision to leave the EU has been the biggest power shift to them (and away from us) in decades.
Let them get on with it. If it fractures, let it do so naturally without trying to pull it apart. If it becomes Brussels Land, we've removed the biggest political obstacle.
I know we have left the EU. That's why I said "leave the EU".
Can't quote the post re:Russia, but yes I'm aware that different countries will have different PoV's, but I was talking about Germany's.
Semi-relatedly, chatting to a Finnish mate, the country has twice (via referendum) voted not to join NATO. The main reasons being (a) not pissing off Russia and (b) the belief that they can't rely on the States/Uk/NATO to come to their aid regardless of what the treaty may say.
I reckon Merkel/Macron are probably thinking the same thing.
Not sure I've moaned about their growing power since we voted to leave.........after all it was just supposed to be a a coal and steel agreement between Germany and a couple of others and they didn't want us in it anyway, even when it expanded they (well the French) didn't want us in it.Let them get on with it. If it fractures, let it do so naturally without trying to pull it apart. If it becomes Brussels Land, we've removed the biggest political obstacle.
I know we have left the EU. That's why I said "leave the EU".
Can't quote the post re:Russia, but yes I'm aware that different countries will have different PoV's, but I was talking about Germany's.
Semi-relatedly, chatting to a Finnish mate, the country has twice (via referendum) voted not to join NATO. The main reasons being (a) not pissing off Russia and (b) the belief that they can't rely on the States/Uk/NATO to come to their aid regardless of what the treaty may say.
I reckon Merkel/Macron are probably thinking the same thing.
Even when we did go in we were lied to and told we were going into a "common market".....my arse!
If it becomes "Brussels" land then so be it.......it won't last long and perhaps we won't ride to their rescue a 3rd time.
Who was this "Finnish friend" our very own JJlyn?.........Finland will have to do what they think is best for Finland just as the UK should do and being a "fully paid up" member of NATO is best for the UK IMO.
And finally.....I don't 2 hoots what Merkel and Macron think... nite nite.
The growing power of Germany was and is created by hard work and a belief in themselves.
After the war when Germany was defeated they had no choice to be a lapdog of the States.Time is moving on and there is a different generation in Germany who don't feel that way anymore.
Germany has become a powerfull industrial entity again and the reunification of East Germany which took the Germans about ten years to sort out is done.
We have made our choice to leave the E.U.which in my opinion is a big mistake.We should have been part of a stronger Europe instead we are going around the world with a begging bowl for future trade.
After the war when Germany was defeated they had no choice to be a lapdog of the States.Time is moving on and there is a different generation in Germany who don't feel that way anymore.
Germany has become a powerfull industrial entity again and the reunification of East Germany which took the Germans about ten years to sort out is done.
We have made our choice to leave the E.U.which in my opinion is a big mistake.We should have been part of a stronger Europe instead we are going around the world with a begging bowl for future trade.
pim said:
The growing power of Germany was and is created by hard work and a belief in themselves.
After the war when Germany was defeated they had no choice to be a lapdog of the States.Time is moving on and there is a different generation in Germany who don't feel that way anymore.
Germany has become a powerfull industrial entity again and the reunification of East Germany which took the Germans about ten years to sort out is done.
...
There is no doubt that work ethics etc have strong part to play in German's success. However they are far from the only part. After the war when Germany was defeated they had no choice to be a lapdog of the States.Time is moving on and there is a different generation in Germany who don't feel that way anymore.
Germany has become a powerfull industrial entity again and the reunification of East Germany which took the Germans about ten years to sort out is done.
...
If we want to look back as far as WWII I'm not convinced they ended up the most financially disadvantaged from that particular period.
And more recently German hard work has been hugely supported by being part of a weakened currency (again at the expense of other participants).
It's too simplistic to lay everything at the door of "hard work" v "laziness".
Merkel's comments are as interesting as they are worrying. I wonder how ready the EU member states are to spend > 2% of their GDP on defence in future were they to break from NATO/be less reliant on the US etc....
pim said:
We have made our choice to leave the E.U.which in my opinion is a big mistake.We should have been part of a stronger Europe instead we are going around the world with a begging bowl for future trade.
Never going to happen - there's only room for one big kid on the (European) block, and for the last century and more it's been either Germany or the UK. If the UK stayed in the EU there would be constant friction, whether overt or not, between the two.Murph7355 said:
Merkel's comments are as interesting as they are worrying. I wonder how ready the EU member states are to spend > 2% of their GDP on defence in future were they to break from NATO/be less reliant on the US etc....
Germany should be supporting the weaker member states who have difficulty in meeting the 2% requirement. Instead, they are perhaps the biggest offender, spending only about 1% year after year. Even Greece spends a much bigger %age - largely due to the fact the German Austerity enforcement has meant their GDP has shrunk dramatically.It is not that surprising that Trump seems to have singled her out as America's least favourite European. I am certain she could redress that by purchasing a few F-35s, or some other costly bits of American kit.
pim said:
The growing power of Germany was and is created by hard work and a belief in themselves.
After the war when Germany was defeated they had no choice to be a lapdog of the States.Time is moving on and there is a different generation in Germany who don't feel that way anymore.
Germany has become a powerfull industrial entity again and the reunification of East Germany which took the Germans about ten years to sort out is done.
We have made our choice to leave the E.U.which in my opinion is a big mistake.We should have been part of a stronger Europe instead we are going around the world with a begging bowl for future trade.
After the war when Germany was defeated they had no choice to be a lapdog of the States.Time is moving on and there is a different generation in Germany who don't feel that way anymore.
Germany has become a powerfull industrial entity again and the reunification of East Germany which took the Germans about ten years to sort out is done.
We have made our choice to leave the E.U.which in my opinion is a big mistake.We should have been part of a stronger Europe instead we are going around the world with a begging bowl for future trade.
The truth is that there is no 'strong Europe' to be part of, which is down to the EU.
Few members have strong economies, many don't even have viable economies, with massive debt, mass unemployment and poor standards of living.
Germany are now the only exception but how long can they avoid having to cede their wealth to save the others, and how will that go down when it happens?
Merkel's statements increasingly appear as those made by the leader of a broken institution looking for someone else to blame.
Hopefully, when push comes to shove, common sense will prevail and negotiations between the EU and the UK and the USA will be conducted in the interests of all and not at the whim of the EU zealots.
johnxjsc1985 said:
Is there continued peace in Europe because Germany are so dominant ?.
You must appease them, buy all their goods and tell the rest of the world how fantastic they are.True story. The other day the chap next door asked if I could feed the fish in his pond whilst him and his misses went on holiday for 2 weeks. "Here you go Ray, handful every other day" there on the side of the fish food tub in big bold letters with a German flag 'MADE IN GERMANY' as if that's better than any other fish food because it's made in Germany. The f
king arrogance of them holds no bounds.I cant remember the guys name but when Germany beat England at Wembley a few years back the goal scorers stood in front of the England fans hands on hips posturing in front of them in a completely offensive and provocative way I thought at the time now that is exactly how a lot of Germans are "superior attitude".
But then my neighbour is German and a nice, quiet , humble and extremely hard working man.
But then my neighbour is German and a nice, quiet , humble and extremely hard working man.
rdjohn said:
Germany should be supporting the weaker member states who have difficulty in meeting the 2% requirement. Instead, they are perhaps the biggest offender, spending only about 1% year after year. Even Greece spends a much bigger %age - largely due to the fact the German Austerity enforcement has meant their GDP has shrunk dramatically.....
The irony being that 25% of Greece's defence expenditure goes to Germany.They really do have it all ways up
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