Uber are getting shirty
Discussion
Don said:
Uber claim that they were not pre-warned that any of these were an issue. (Who knows if that statement can be trusted!)
If they didn't report serious criminal offences then they were corporately some kind of accessory after the fact! Surely some sort of criminal charges should be being brought?
Obtaining medical certificates? How does one obtain these in an underhand manner!? Without committing an offence they should be being charged with?
Greyball software. This software is nothing more or less than the ability to deny rides to specific Uber accounts. Whilst denying service based on ethnicity or sex or sexual orientation might be illegal there is no obligation on business to serve everyone...
It's all a bit odd and, I expect, we will indeed see these claims tested in court.
Like all American tech giants Uber are unpopular with European politicians because they pay the majority of their taxes in the US. The Americans, of course, would be mighty unhappy with any other arrangement. That's a political problem.
I am of the opinion that this ban is an exercise in negotiation.
My bold.If they didn't report serious criminal offences then they were corporately some kind of accessory after the fact! Surely some sort of criminal charges should be being brought?
Obtaining medical certificates? How does one obtain these in an underhand manner!? Without committing an offence they should be being charged with?
Greyball software. This software is nothing more or less than the ability to deny rides to specific Uber accounts. Whilst denying service based on ethnicity or sex or sexual orientation might be illegal there is no obligation on business to serve everyone...
It's all a bit odd and, I expect, we will indeed see these claims tested in court.
Like all American tech giants Uber are unpopular with European politicians because they pay the majority of their taxes in the US. The Americans, of course, would be mighty unhappy with any other arrangement. That's a political problem.
I am of the opinion that this ban is an exercise in negotiation.
Uber is not a fly-by-night operation (despite what the haters think!). The fact that their operating licence was not automatically renewed but merely extended by 5 months should have sent some major shockwaves through their London operation. I'm sure TfL would have issued some reason to Uber why they didn't do a full renewal.
This was the time to sort their house out or at least to challenge then why they think they should be given a full licence. Somehow, i get the impression that Uber think that some rules don't apply to them but I guess the court case will decide, one way or another, who is in the right. But as you say, it may merely be a negotiation to meet halfway on some things.
I know TfL quite well and while their muppetry on occasion defies explanation, they are generally not vindictive (unless you park on a red route
). They are a bureaucratic organisation who like their rules followed. Do that and you're fine. Disobey and they get shirty like we're seeing here.I can see them sorting out the medical and convictions thingy quite quickly but this Greyball thing has me interested. I wonder if there's more to this than meets the eye.
hyphen said:
Uber uses a loophole to not pay any Uk VAT. Just that alone is a 20% competition advantage over normal uk services and a 20% reduction to the nations coffers.
But as you say, punters don't care/lack awareness.
Do black cabs charge VAT, as I've never had a VAT receipt from them as either?But as you say, punters don't care/lack awareness.
Don said:
My prediction is that Khan will regret this.
400K signatories (on a petition to reinstate Uber) out of a customer base of 3.5 million is a massive proportion.
Feelings are running high. And they are for Uber not against.
Where did you get this information from. 400,000 Londoners or could it actually be worldwide?400K signatories (on a petition to reinstate Uber) out of a customer base of 3.5 million is a massive proportion.
Feelings are running high. And they are for Uber not against.
It's the latter.
Uber has tweeted the link to the petition, emailed and posted it up far and wide.
Ontop of his arrogance the London Uber boss is going to regret his misinformation campaign. It's hardly making tfl soften is it.
carl_w said:
hyphen said:
They are not exempt, so unless they are routing their funds via a dutch postbox like Uber, they need to register for VAT if they go over the threshold amount.
And what is the chance of an individual cabbie exceeding the VAT registration threshold (currently £83k)?Its not a like for like comparison to compare a service to a driver.
The correct one is taxi booking services and Uber. Uber have based themselves legally in Amsterdam to avoid UK vat.
hyphen said:
The same chances as an Uber driver?
Its not a like for like comparison to compare a service to a driver.
The correct one is taxi booking services and Uber. Uber have based themselves legally in Amsterdam to avoid UK vat.
They charge UK VAT on their booking commission I believe. Its not a like for like comparison to compare a service to a driver.
The correct one is taxi booking services and Uber. Uber have based themselves legally in Amsterdam to avoid UK vat.
Carl_Manchester said:
buggalugs said:
The issue is they’re doing it at a massive loss. They’re loosing billions a year to undercut the black cabs, and how long can they afford to keep that up? And what’s going to happen to the prices once the competition throws in the towel?
People like Lyft are using Ubers financing via Google (they own 7% of uber) as a legal bulldozer. Once the litigation has subsided, other players (including Google themselves and Amazon) will start to move in, possibly with fully automated or semi-automated cabs somewhere around 2022.The real target however, is not Taxi's, it is delivery, logistics and freight.
U.S and EU combined market is worth approx $1.5 trillion USD per year, this is the prize, all this current kerfuffle is just a side-show to the main act.
There is a school of thought that proposes that some of the money currently buried in buy-to-let property will move into automated transportation. If the gateway to entry is simply buying an automated car or truck and plugging it into Ubers/Google's/Amazons network you could personally run your own mini-logistics or tax firm with just one person and just a fleet of automated taxis/vans/trucks.
These black-cab drivers are just canaries in the coal-mine for the millions of jobs about to be lost all across the transportation and car industry.
PurpleMoonlight said:
hyphen said:
The same chances as an Uber driver?
Its not a like for like comparison to compare a service to a driver.
The correct one is taxi booking services and Uber. Uber have based themselves legally in Amsterdam to avoid UK vat.
They charge UK VAT on their booking commission I believe. Its not a like for like comparison to compare a service to a driver.
The correct one is taxi booking services and Uber. Uber have based themselves legally in Amsterdam to avoid UK vat.
In the same way my son believes in Santa...
A QC believes it to be illegal and is taking Uber to court, Uber tried to put him off by advising they would be claiming for full costs from him personally, but he is going ahead regardless!
Edited by hyphen on Sunday 24th September 13:25
valiant said:
Or Is it because the rules are reasonable, apply to all firms and that it's Uber who are refusing to comply. As I've said before, all Uber has to do is comply with the laid down rules of operating a ph firm in London and they'll be allowed to operate. Again, ask yourself why Uber are refusing to do this.
Any chance you could tell us what your explanation is?Sa Calobra said:
Where did you get this information from. 400,000 Londoners or could it actually be worldwide?
I asssumed it was 80k or whatever UK uber drivers and all their family and friends!Without condoning uber or their practices, when pretty much everywhere they've gone globally they've met massive opposition from a protectionist industry you can't be that suprised when they just fight everything instinctively.
For instance, who cares if the app is a "meter"? The metering regulations in spirit are to prevent people being unsuspectingly hit with overcharging/dodgy meters etc, as a means to pre emptively calculate a fare its no more relevent than the map in a station minicab office with measured circular charging lines , but despite this it formed the basis of an attack.
It's weird that on this Uber issue - i'm on the same side as a Labour Mayor and on the opposite side to the Tories and my intellectual mentor Brendan O'Neill (from the Spectator) - rather confused.com. If Uber can counter TFL's points then I am happy to change my mind - but it does appear to me (and anecdotally from chatting with drivers) that they are cutting corners and not just beating their competitors fairly and squarely.
Sa Calobra said:
On Twitter they want us to defend 40,000 drivers livelihoods. They can start by offering employee rights if they are that concerned and shelve plans to develop driverless Uber cars then...
No they don't.People have got used to cheap taxis and that's what there moaning about , they couldn't give a s
t that some poor fker is busting his ass driving the cab on less than min wage as long as they get there cheap ride.Sa Calobra said:
On Twitter they want us to defend 40,000 drivers livelihoods. They can start by offering employee rights if they are that concerned and shelve plans to develop driverless Uber cars then...
Whilst I completely agree that employees should have proper rights...why should Uber shelve plans for driverless cars?
All the big tech outfits are rushing to get the technology. It is coming. That's inevitable and nothing to do with Uber (other than them being a minor player in the industry, so far).
Driving as a profession is absolutely but surely going to be a short lived phenomenon from now on. This will be in our lifetimes, too. Less than twenty years, I reckon. The technology is almost good enough already: given our technological rate of progress twenty years might be an overestimate....
...but I digress.
egor110 said:
No they don't.
People have got used to cheap taxis and that's what there moaning about , they couldn't give a st that some poor fker is busting his ass driving the cab on less than min wage as long as they get there cheap ride.
I think this is the thing, uber shouldn't be seen of as a full time job.People have got used to cheap taxis and that's what there moaning about , they couldn't give a s
t that some poor fker is busting his ass driving the cab on less than min wage as long as they get there cheap ride.Some taxi drivers switch to uber from PH and then complain that their wages are too low, ubers aim is to eliminate the taxi/minicab profession, first through ride sharing and eventually through automation.
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