Everyone is so offended.

[Digga]

Breadvan72 said:

I mention left v right because some see trans activism as a left wing thing, although when properly analysed it is regressive, not progressive, and because gender critical organisations are sometimes falsely accused of being funded by far right groups..

As for children and teenagers, the rise in trans cases appears to be a case of social contagion (Professor Christakis at Yale, perhaps the world's leading expert on social contagion, thinks so), as happens also with eating disorders, cutting, gluten intolerance, allergies, etc. Most children and teenagers who present with GID recover from it if not given meds and surgery, and many just grow up to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual adults; but some very questionable doctors prefer aggressive medication and surgery. To be blunt, they sterilise children in pursuit of a highly questionable diagnosis, and bogus charities such as Mermaids (still awaiting its Kids Club moment) push this approach in pursuit of an ideology that is profoundly homophobic.

I have always considered myself fairly tolerant and indiscriminate, with regard to other peoples sexual and gender orientation. I could never find difficulty with understanding and, even, sympathising with gay or bi people. Of late though, with the advent (in my experience it's new, at any rate) of the whole trans spectrum, I feel a bit at odds with things.

My fear or concern was that I was missing a crucial understanding of the debate and, worse yet, I was somehow intolerant (or in danger of being so perceived0 as a result. Your post above pretty much explains my own misgivings, at this stage. I feel people have the right to do what they want, but at the same time that (potentially very vulnerable) people may be sold an ideal which is not for them and also that the woke use the broader populations ignorance as a cudgel, to claim moral high ground - to take offence where none was ever intended.

[Johnnytheboy]

I am also very liberal when it comes to people doing what they like, even if it's not something I want to do.

The trans vs feminism collision illustrates the problem when one group wanting to do something (former men going in to women's spaces) and the other group wanting the opposite (women wanting their own spaces).

This particular issue is so special because both groups think they are the oppressed minority and are well versed in using the language of victimhood.

[otolith]

It must be quite strange, though, for those of a liberal bent to find themselves on the same side of the debate as Melanie Phillips and Katie Hopkins.

[AshVX220]

For those interested and have the time, there's a thread on here (The Gender Non-Binary Debate), which is extremely interesting and has many posts from a couple of PH's who are Trans. It opened my eyes a lot and I sympathise with them a lot now, I did anyway, but even more so after reading their thoughts.

It is a difficult one, I'm extremely socially liberal, but a raging right winger too when it comes to economics and the free market. In short I guess I'm a libertarian, let people live their lives how they wish and take responsbility for their lives and basically treat everyone the way you wish to be treated.

However, with the case above, I'm afraid if someone is pre-op nad has committed such a crime that had a voilence threat to it, then a male prison must be the only option.

There was a TV show recently, where Ross Kemp spent time in Belmarsh. During that time he met a Trans woman who was Pre-op and serving time in Belmarsh (for assisting suicide), she was actually OK being in there and a bunch of the guys there got on very well with her as mates and she hadn't had issues with people wanting to attack her etc.

[Johnnytheboy]

AshVX220 said:

It is a difficult one, I'm extremely socially liberal, but a raging right winger too when it comes to economics and the free market. In short I guess I'm a libertarian, let people live their lives how they wish and take responsbility for their lives and basically treat everyone the way you wish to be treated.

[amusingduck]

AshVX220 said:

For those interested and have the time, there's a thread on here (The Gender Non-Binary Debate), which is extremely interesting and has many posts from a couple of PH's who are Trans. It opened my eyes a lot and I sympathise with them a lot now, I did anyway, but even more so after reading their thoughts.

It is a difficult one, I'm extremely socially liberal, but a raging right winger too when it comes to economics and the free market. In short I guess I'm a libertarian, let people live their lives how they wish and take responsbility for their lives and basically treat everyone the way you wish to be treated.

However, with the case above, I'm afraid if someone is pre-op nad has committed such a crime that had a voilence threat to it, then a male prison must be the only option.

There was a TV show recently, where Ross Kemp spent time in Belmarsh. During that time he met a Trans woman who was Pre-op and serving time in Belmarsh (for assisting suicide), she was actually OK being in there and a bunch of the guys there got on very well with her as mates and she hadn't had issues with people wanting to attack her etc.

What about the people who don't want to have surgery?

I think I'd rather have a system where they have to take hormones for 2 years before they could go to women's prison

[WinstonWolf]

amusingduck said:

AshVX220 said:

For those interested and have the time, there's a thread on here (The Gender Non-Binary Debate), which is extremely interesting and has many posts from a couple of PH's who are Trans. It opened my eyes a lot and I sympathise with them a lot now, I did anyway, but even more so after reading their thoughts.

It is a difficult one, I'm extremely socially liberal, but a raging right winger too when it comes to economics and the free market. In short I guess I'm a libertarian, let people live their lives how they wish and take responsbility for their lives and basically treat everyone the way you wish to be treated.

However, with the case above, I'm afraid if someone is pre-op nad has committed such a crime that had a voilence threat to it, then a male prison must be the only option.

There was a TV show recently, where Ross Kemp spent time in Belmarsh. During that time he met a Trans woman who was Pre-op and serving time in Belmarsh (for assisting suicide), she was actually OK being in there and a bunch of the guys there got on very well with her as mates and she hadn't had issues with people wanting to attack her etc.

What about the people who don't want to have surgery?

If they're not sufficiently convinced they're the wrong sex to have surgery how can anyone else be?

[descentia]

Breadvan72 said:

I mention left v right because some see trans activism as a left wing thing, although when properly analysed it is regressive, not progressive, and because gender critical organisations are sometimes falsely accused of being funded by far right groups..

As for children and teenagers, the rise in trans cases appears to be a case of social contagion (Professor Christakis at Yale, perhaps the world's leading expert on social contagion, thinks so), as happens also with eating disorders, cutting, gluten intolerance, allergies, etc. Most children and teenagers who present with GID recover from it if not given meds and surgery, and many just grow up to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual adults; but some very questionable doctors prefer aggressive medication and surgery. To be blunt, they sterilise children in pursuit of a highly questionable diagnosis, and bogus charities such as Mermaids (still awaiting its Kids Club moment) push this approach in pursuit of an ideology that is profoundly homophobic.

The same was said about giving gay rights , that somehow society would be corrupted by giving gay people things like the right to adopt, have civil partnerships or marriage.
As for children being sterilised or given surgery that's not how the system works at all. The waiting list for a first appointment is currently one year, there's no instant access as the service is so poorly funded, That first appointment is an assessment and from there there's a further long wait to access the specialist gender unit if appropriate.Then there are further checks and assessments before medication is given and in the case of minors that medication is only to temporarily halt puberty. It doesn't sterilise anyone and medications involved are the same ones given for other more common conditions so the medical understanding of how they work is very well known. But the myth that children are being experimented on and damaged continues to be perpetrated.
The whole process takes so long that those few children who are assessed as having GID usually end up being passed on to the adult service as they go over the age of 16. Then they find themselves in another waiting list for another assessment and another wait to see the specialists. There simply is no instant access to medication or surgeries for children or adults.


Mermaids has existed since1995 and was set-up by the parents of trans kids, not activists with any agenda. They exist as a support group for families and children going through the similar problems.

The problem with the trans activists vs the TERFS dispute is both sides shout at each other whilst most people look on bewildered by the venomous insults they trade.

[amusingduck]

WinstonWolf said:

amusingduck said:

AshVX220 said:

For those interested and have the time, there's a thread on here (The Gender Non-Binary Debate), which is extremely interesting and has many posts from a couple of PH's who are Trans. It opened my eyes a lot and I sympathise with them a lot now, I did anyway, but even more so after reading their thoughts.

It is a difficult one, I'm extremely socially liberal, but a raging right winger too when it comes to economics and the free market. In short I guess I'm a libertarian, let people live their lives how they wish and take responsbility for their lives and basically treat everyone the way you wish to be treated.

However, with the case above, I'm afraid if someone is pre-op nad has committed such a crime that had a voilence threat to it, then a male prison must be the only option.

There was a TV show recently, where Ross Kemp spent time in Belmarsh. During that time he met a Trans woman who was Pre-op and serving time in Belmarsh (for assisting suicide), she was actually OK being in there and a bunch of the guys there got on very well with her as mates and she hadn't had issues with people wanting to attack her etc.

What about the people who don't want to have surgery?

If they're not sufficiently convinced they're the wrong sex to have surgery how can anyone else be?

Because surgery doesn't wave a magic wand and make them biologically female. You can't turn a penis into a vagina, I'd imagine some people would prefer the penis they were born with rather than the best approximation of a vagina we can manage. If they could have the real thing, I'd imagine they all would.

[markyb_lcy]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Pretty funny for sure, but it does seem to have been intentional. I’m not offended but I do find it quite inappropriate.

Maybe they could attend a few burglaries instead of dossing around thinking of ways to look clever on social media.

[Tuna]

Breadvan72 said:

I agree. The penetration of government by this lobbying group is quite remarkable. It may partly stem from the fact that Stonewall was a credible and respected lobbying group for LGB people, with the ear of Government, but after the fights for gay marriage and GRCs were were won, it had nothing left to justify its government funding. It was then taken over by TRAs, and became a lobbying body for mostly male trans people. Pink News has gone the same way, and is showing itself to have some ugly misogynist positions. Organisations such as LGB Alliance, falsely branded a hate group. are led by reasonable and moderate ex Stonewall campaigners. Mermaids is a bizarre organisation, funded by Starbucks and others. It may be the next Kids Club. There are also serious questions about the ethics of a small but active group of medical practitioners. Fortunately, it appears that the tide may be turning.

I don't know where you're getting your expertise in gender matters from, but there does seem to be a pretty consistent agenda in your dismissal of trans groups.

"Mostly male trans people" - I'm under the impression that the incidence of male to female transsexualism is much, much higher than the reverse, so that's not really a fair accusation.

Pink News being misogynistic wouldn't be surprising if it's staffed more by gay males than females - gay male friends have been the most consistently misogynistic group I've known (yeah, broad brush generalisation, but still).

As I said before, I fully accept there are nutters on the trans side, but that is no justification for refusing to acknowledge that for some, being transsexual is a serious and debilitating condition that can be addressed by intervention. Pointing to idiots in jail, or suggesting that children are being incorrectly reassigned (are they, in any meaningful numbers? Not exactly a regular news item) does not negate the need for acceptance and provision in our society, does it?

I'll be honest, I'm surprised at your stance - given your previous positions on care and support for the vulnerable in our society - that you want to pick and chose exactly who you wish to protect. "Just think of the children" is a lazy (and unevidenced?) defence for pulling up the drawbridge.

[anonymous-user]

I politely and genuinely suggest that you do some reading, especially on the safeguarding issues, and on the medical issues to do with transing of troubled children. There is BTW some evidence that right wing interests associated with big pharma have a financial stake in the remarkable growth of transing. That is just one reason why many progressive voices are raised against gender ideology.

Crazy things happen each day. Yesterday, an Exeter University academic was branded a transphobe because she asserted (correctly) that only women menstruate. Today, a leading feminist historian was de-platformed at a feminist conference because the organisers were intimidated by male complainants. Earlier this week, Glasgow Women's Library banned a women's group from discussing the GRA reforms because a man complained. The Royal Institute announced a survey asking why women watch science films, but aimed it at those "who identify as women". A Kiwi man who cannot win against men has pretended to be a woman and shamelessly cheated his way to medals in women's weightlifting, and may cheat his way to take the Olympic team place of a woman who has trained for years. There is a serious campaign against women's speech and women's rights being waged by males who say that they identify as women.

If a woman is to be defined by what a person thinks and feels, that eliminates the concept of a woman, There are some serious and articulate feminist voices that put the case against gender ideology far better than I can. Please listen to women on the subject. By women, I mean adult human females, who belong to the sex class known as female.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 29th February 22:21

[8.4L 154]

Breadvan72 said:

I politely and genuinely suggest that you do some reading, especially on the safeguarding issues, and on the medical issues to do with transing of troubled children. There is BTW some evidence that right wing interests associated with big pharma have a financial stake in the remarkable growth of transing. That is just one reason why many progressive voices are raised against gender ideology.

Crazy things happen each day. Yesterday, an Exeter University academic was branded a transphobe because she asserted (correctly) that only women menstruate. Today, a leading feminist historian was de-platformed at a feminist conference because the organisers were intimidated by male complainants. Earlier this week, Glasgow Women's Library banned a women's group from discussing the GRA reforms because a man complained. The Royal Institute announced a survey asking why women watch science films, but aimed it at those "who identify as women". A Kiwi man who cannot win against men has pretended to be a woman and shamelessly cheated his way to medals in women's weightlifting, and may cheat his way to take the Olympic team place of a woman who has trained for years. There is a serious campaign against women's speech and women's rights being waged by males who say that they identify as women.

If a woman is to be defined by what a person thinks and feels, that eliminates the concept of a woman, There are some serious and articulate feminist voices that put the case against gender ideology far better than I can. Please listen to women on the subject. By women, I mean adult human females, who belong to the sex class known as female.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Saturday 29th February 22:21

Yeaa, I was just waiting for big pharma to fill my transphobe tin foil hat bingo card. Just have to post it off now to get my cheque from the trans lobby.

CBA to pick apart all your tripe so will just point out given your previous claims of TRA's silencing the scientists.but in the conspiracy theory you mentioned the Royal institute survey tweet.

Yep that's Malcolm Clark co founder (with your friend and colleague Allison Bailey) of LGB Alliance. It was LGB Alliance and anti trans people who silenced and forced RI (the real scientists) to take down their survey and tweets preventing all women from taking part.







ps seems the LGBT community thinks LGB Alliance is a hate groups.

Edited by 8.4L 154 on Saturday 29th February 23:40

[descentia]

Breadvan I suggest you try reading other sources than the ones you have read so far which seem to be from the TERF side of the argument. I use argument because this spat is far from a discussion or any kind of debate.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-u...

You seem to forget those women who don't menstrate due to medical conditions, are they not real women ?
What about trans men ? that's something we never hear any dispute about. Supposedly for your way of thinking they must still be female and therefore use female spaces.
Right wing pharma pushing trans agendas is a new twist because the medications used in the treatment of GID are amongst the most commonly available substances. IE cheap. Previously I'd only heard that it was right wing interests denying trans anything at all but then maybe the usual subjects like the Daily Mail, Times and the Telegraph are going to change to being supportive as part of this trans agenda you talk about.
Trans rights in sport is regulated by the IOC and they recently changed the rules to lower testosterone levels from 10 to 5. Even at 10 there have been no medal winners at the Olympics or any other important national or international competition. As far as anyone is aware there hasn't even been any trans athletes at the Olympics never mind winning medals. There have been athletes who transitioned after competing, notably a few East Germans but none the other way round.

[Tuna]

Breadvan72 said:

I politely and genuinely suggest that

Call me suspicious, but the rest of your rant does not come across as either polite or genuine.

Breadvan72 said:

.... right wing interests associated with big pharma have a financial stake in the remarkable growth of transing

Well that's one way to destroy any credibility in a handful of words.

Breadvan72 said:

If a woman is to be defined by what a person thinks and feels, that eliminates the concept of a woman, There are some serious and articulate feminist voices that put the case against gender ideology far better than I can. Please listen to women on the subject. By women, I mean adult human females, who belong to the sex class known as female.

Forgive me for presuming, but it doesn't sound like you have ever "listened to a transsexual on the subject", in person. I fully agree that arbitrary declarations of gender are nonsensical and doing the trans community a great deal of harm. However, outside of the Daily Mail-esque headlines you recounted, every trans person I have encountered has taken years, if not decades to declare and live their gender. They do not deny, override or negate the experience of natal females (if that's the right term), and largely do not want to get involved in needless student politics over gender. Every one of them has had a long, difficult and painful journey and has no desire to start fights - and I personally feel they have more than earned the right to be respected and accepted as they wish.

Frankly, your attitude is both patronising and remarkably intolerant. Pointing to extremes in the trans community does not change that or justify it.

[Tuna]

As a test, imagine you replaced Breadvan's diatribe with an rant in favour of racial segregation:

Not Breadvan said:

I politely and genuinely suggest that you do some reading, especially on the safeguarding issues, and on the medical issues to do with integration of black children with white.

Crazy things happen each day. Yesterday three black youths were involved with a knife attack in London. Earlier this week, black men forced themselves into a white library to "read books". A black athlete has insisted on competing in swimming alongside white women, despite the fact that white women are consistently better at swimming.

There are some serious and articulate voices that put the case in favour of segregation far better than I can (including senior figures at NASA, in Government and academia). Please listen to people on the subject. By people, I mean white people.

Yeah, pretty distasteful.

[8.4L 154]

breadvan72 said:

Earlier this week, Glasgow Women's Library banned a women's group from discussing the GRA reforms because a man complained

So the truth behind Glasgow Women's Library, They had a leaky roof, they had to move their kettle and some books and tidy up the mess, as a result they closed their building. Subsequently they discovered the group who were cancelled due to the leaky roof had made the booking by misrepresenting themselves, something these groups seem to do often.







Don't believe everything a transphoebe says folks, its mostly smoke and mirrors.

[JagLover]

Tuna said:

Forgive me for presuming, but it doesn't sound like you have ever "listened to a transsexual on the subject", in person. I fully agree that arbitrary declarations of gender are nonsensical and doing the trans community a great deal of harm. However, outside of the Daily Mail-esque headlines you recounted, every trans person I have encountered has taken years, if not decades to declare and live their gender. They do not deny, override or negate the experience of natal females (if that's the right term), and largely do not want to get involved in needless student politics over gender. Every one of them has had a long, difficult and painful journey and has no desire to start fights - and I personally feel they have more than earned the right to be respected and accepted as they wish.

The concern over safeguarding is more to do those who you have not met I imagine.

I imagine you do not mix with male sex offenders who declare they self identify as women to be put in women's prisons for one example. Nor I imagine do you mix with the kinds of perverts who want to get into girl's changing rooms for sexual gratification.

There are serious issues surrounding safeguarding that cannot be simply wished away because people want to appear tolerant.

Edited by JagLover on Sunday 1st March 05:49

[amusingduck]

descentia said:

You seem to forget those women who don't menstrate due to medical conditions, are they not real women ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txd7grUZQTw

Different topic, but a fantastic explanation of the difference between a woman's circumstances and what a woman is in principle.

Women who cannot menstruate do not change the definition of what a Woman is.

[otolith]

descentia said:

You seem to forget those women who don't menstrate due to medical conditions, are they not real women ?

Point of order on logic - BV said;

“ Yesterday, an Exeter University academic was branded a transphobe because she asserted (correctly) that only women menstruate.“

“All menstruators are women” does not mean “all women are menstruators”, nor that “no non-menstruators are women”.

You can argue about whether the first clause is true - whether menstruating trans men are women or men - but there is no argument there to be made about women who don’t menstruate.