Discussion
kayc said:
Ghibli said:
The problem appears to be that she is negotiating with the EU.
Brexit involves negotiations with ourselves and agreeing that we want all sorts of stuff even if it isn't achievable.
We just need more time to convince ourselves that the worst possible deal is what leave voters wanted in the first place.
Negotiation means both sides prepared to compromise which the Eu cant be seen to do for us,if they offer us an easy escape route the Italians will want out before their country totally implodes..then the fun really starts..makes Brexit look like a walk in the park compared to Italexit.Brexit involves negotiations with ourselves and agreeing that we want all sorts of stuff even if it isn't achievable.
We just need more time to convince ourselves that the worst possible deal is what leave voters wanted in the first place.
kayc said:
Negotiation means both sides prepared to compromise which the Eu cant be seen to do for us,if they offer us an easy escape route the Italians will want out before their country totally implodes..then the fun really starts..makes Brexit look like a walk in the park compared to Italexit.
I can't see what Italy has to do with the Irish border problem but that is Brexit for you.Tuna said:
Ghibli said:
We just need more time to convince ourselves that the worst possible deal is what leave voters wanted in the first place.
That is kinda your goal, isn't it? If you can't have Remain, you want Chequers? Worst possible deal indeed.Thanks for your interpretation of what I think but as always you are wrong.
Ghibli said:
I can't see what Italy has to do with the Irish border problem but that is Brexit for you.
That problem can be solved if Eu wanted it to..personally I want a hard brexit and nothing to do with unelected troughers in the Eu..my other alternative is a second referendum on either a clean hard brexit or if remain win we scrap the UK parliament and have an EU Govt..lets go the whole way if we want to be part of the club..oh and lets adopt the Euro too.Ghibli said:
The Goverment has to polish a turd to keep leave voters happy.
I don't see this - It's not the voters she's trying to keep happy. The Majority that voted for Brexit don't want a compromise, they want out. Now.Soft Brexiteers are Remainers who want to fudge a deal to basically stay in in all but name. May is a Remainer.
She's trying to keep MPs happy, most of who are Remainers, who will also vote against the wishes of their constituents if they think they can get that fudge.
saaby93 said:
Whats the problem with a couple of months if it leads to a better deal?
There is a point to more time for negotiations if what they need is time.In this case, both sides understand the issues and both sides won’t give way. In the case of the U.K., even if they did give way, it wouldn’t get through Parliament.
Time is the last thing these talks need...they just need to decide.
kayc said:
Ghibli said:
I can't see what Italy has to do with the Irish border problem but that is Brexit for you.
That problem can be solved if Eu wanted it to..personally I want a hard brexit and nothing to do with unelected troughers in the Eu..my other alternative is a second referendum on either a clean hard brexit or if remain win we scrap the UK parliament and have an EU Govt..lets go the whole way if we want to be part of the club..oh and lets adopt the Euro too.Mothersruin said:
Ghibli said:
The Goverment has to polish a turd to keep leave voters happy.
I don't see this - It's not the voters she's trying to keep happy. The Majority that voted for Brexit don't want a compromise, they want out. Now.Soft Brexiteers are Remainers who want to fudge a deal to basically stay in in all but name. May is a Remainer.
She's trying to keep MPs happy, most of who are Remainers, who will also vote against the wishes of their constituents if they think they can get that fudge.
For example, what about the people who wanted the EU to bend over backward because the Germans need to sell us cars. I believe Farage was one of these Brexit voters.
Mothersruin said:
I don't see this - It's not the voters she's trying to keep happy. The Majority that voted for Brexit don't want a compromise, they want out. Now.
I really doubt that it is possible or realistic to lump all of the Leave voters into a single group like that, with a single mind and a single desired outcome. Because it's obvious nonsense. May is trying - and it is a very difficult line to walk - to maintain stability for the UK, effect a smooth transition from EU membership to being outside the EU, keep her vocal Brexiteer MPs at bay at the same time as her vocal Remain MPs at bay, negotiate with an entity that has zero reason to provide the UK with any advantages as a by-product of leaving the EU, and cut an apparently Gordian knot in the shape of the Irish border.
Of, of course, on PH, where some people have considerable experience of doing complex organisational tasks like marshalling everyone's drink orders before a run for the bar, this sort of task is simplicity itself.
When I voted out, I voted for a hard Brexit. I expected nothing else. If we could have struck a deal in the 24 months since the vote, for things like intelligence sharing, etc then clearly that was common sense and logical. Foreign nationals that are already here have leave to remain and the rest of it we decide as we go along.
I had no illusions about loads of money for the NHS, I wanted control of our borders and the right to self determination.
I had no illusions about loads of money for the NHS, I wanted control of our borders and the right to self determination.
Mothersruin said:
I don't see this - It's not the voters she's trying to keep happy. The Majority that voted for Brexit don't want a compromise, they want out. Now.
Soft Brexiteers are Remainers who want to fudge a deal to basically stay in in all but name. May is a Remainer.
She's trying to keep MPs happy, most of who are Remainers, who will also vote against the wishes of their constituents if they think they can get that fudge.
How can you simply want out now when you've got a complicated and sensitive issue such as the Irish border.Soft Brexiteers are Remainers who want to fudge a deal to basically stay in in all but name. May is a Remainer.
She's trying to keep MPs happy, most of who are Remainers, who will also vote against the wishes of their constituents if they think they can get that fudge.
Reflecting on that and for example the need to continue trading efficiently etc. I'm not sure 'out now' is possible?
As i see it, the entire process is a highly complicated effort from ever possible angle (and more) simply to get the job done half-right, let alone perfect!
Perhaps I'm making it too complicated in my tiny head
Ghibli said:
Mothersruin said:
Ghibli said:
The Goverment has to polish a turd to keep leave voters happy.
I don't see this - It's not the voters she's trying to keep happy. The Majority that voted for Brexit don't want a compromise, they want out. Now.Soft Brexiteers are Remainers who want to fudge a deal to basically stay in in all but name. May is a Remainer.
She's trying to keep MPs happy, most of who are Remainers, who will also vote against the wishes of their constituents if they think they can get that fudge.
For example, what about the people who wanted the EU to bend over backward because the Germans need to sell us cars. I believe Farage was one of these Brexit voters.
Tyre Smoke said:
When I voted out, I voted for a hard Brexit. I expected nothing else. If we could have struck a deal in the 24 months since the vote, for things like intelligence sharing, etc then clearly that was common sense and logical. Foreign nationals that are already here have leave to remain and the rest of it we decide as we go along.
I had no illusions about loads of money for the NHS, I wanted control of our borders and the right to self determination.
This 100% I had no illusions about loads of money for the NHS, I wanted control of our borders and the right to self determination.
sadly politicians on both sides along with unalected civil servants have ridden roughshod over democracy and common sense
we should have had business people directly involved right from the start, 2 years of pissing about now they want longer
for what ?? so they can water it down and do some grubby deal that will f
k up the UK !! more uncertainty for business and a firewall for the EU so they can keep the jackboot on the other 27 a bit longer .....
HoHoHo said:
How can you simply want out now when you've got a complicated and sensitive issue such as the Irish border.
I think something people tend to forget when talking about the Irish Border is the fact that most people really couldn't care less about it. I know that is not meant to be said, but I have yet to speak to anyone that has that issue anywhere but the bottom of their list of concerns, with the exception of those over there.
Greg66 said:
Mothersruin said:
I don't see this - It's not the voters she's trying to keep happy. The Majority that voted for Brexit don't want a compromise, they want out. Now.
I really doubt that it is possible or realistic to lump all of the Leave voters into a single group like that, with a single mind and a single desired outcome. Because it's obvious nonsense. May is trying - and it is a very difficult line to walk - to maintain stability for the UK, effect a smooth transition from EU membership to being outside the EU, keep her vocal Brexiteer MPs at bay at the same time as her vocal Remain MPs at bay, negotiate with an entity that has zero reason to provide the UK with any advantages as a by-product of leaving the EU, and cut an apparently Gordian knot in the shape of the Irish border.
Of, of course, on PH, where some people have considerable experience of doing complex organisational tasks like marshalling everyone's drink orders before a run for the bar, this sort of task is simplicity itself.
saaby93 said:
Whats the problem with a couple of months if it leads to a better deal?
What's the problem with not having been able to resolve it in the past 18 months or more?(OK, we KNOW what the problems are; my point is, if they couldn't do it already they aren't going to be able to do it any time soon).
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