Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[don'tbesilly]

Ghibli said:

dro said:

Do you never get bored posting constant guff all day?. Why not go play in your MX5 or get some rust treatment into its rear arches?, If you actually have one , or maybe do something else constructive, maybe even get some exercise to relieve your flattened buttocks, If that is beyond your capability then ever thought about posting something worthwhile?.

Do you ever get bored of posting the same thing?

Next

[ClaphamGT3]

andymadmak said:

mx5nut said:

What's the solution to these traitorous unelected bureaucratic civil servants who just aren't being patriotic enough to make the impossible possible?

You do pick some silly words. Traitorous? Patriotic?

Their line managers just need to remind them that their obligation is to follow the instructions given to them, and not to pursue their own private agendas. I am sure the civil service will ultimately remember that they are employed by the British people, not Brussels.

Impossible? Never say never. After all, you find new ways every day to make yourself look even more silly, despite most of us thinking that that would be impossible

Contrary to the oft-quoted bloke down the pub belief that civil servants exist to do exactly what politicians tell them to, civil servants' principal duty is to advise government to act lawfully and constitutionally - and that includes international legal obligations

[andymadmak]

ClaphamGT3 said:

andymadmak said:

mx5nut said:

What's the solution to these traitorous unelected bureaucratic civil servants who just aren't being patriotic enough to make the impossible possible?

You do pick some silly words. Traitorous? Patriotic?

Their line managers just need to remind them that their obligation is to follow the instructions given to them, and not to pursue their own private agendas. I am sure the civil service will ultimately remember that they are employed by the British people, not Brussels.

Impossible? Never say never. After all, you find new ways every day to make yourself look even more silly, despite most of us thinking that that would be impossible

Contrary to the oft-quoted bloke down the pub belief that civil servants exist to do exactly what politicians tell them to, civil servants' principal duty is to advise government to act lawfully and constitutionally - and that includes international legal obligations

I agree, aside from the fact that not all civil servants are government advisors, but I know you didn't mean that, so I'll not do an MX5 and deliberately misinterpret your post so that I can ridicule you.

Civil servants are there to enact the policies set by the Government - provided such policies are lawful) and to ensure that the enacting (for want of a better expression) is done in a lawful way, having due regards to the constitutional and other legal constraints.
A civil servants duty is not to follow their own political agenda, I am sure you agree?

[dromong]

Ghibli said:

dro said:

Do you never get bored posting constant guff all day?. Why not go play in your MX5 or get some rust treatment into its rear arches?, If you actually have one , or maybe do something else constructive, maybe even get some exercise to relieve your flattened buttocks, If that is beyond your capability then ever thought about posting something worthwhile?.

Do you ever get bored of posting the same thing?

Nope, never, goes with the territory, its par for the course on here, when in Rome and all that, but saying that if I started doing it from dawn till yawn like the "nothing better to do all day" brigade on here I could see it quickly becoming rather tedious.

And you?.

[anonymous-user]

dro said:

Nope, never, goes with the territory, its par for the course on here, when in Rome and all that, but saying that if I started doing it from dawn till yawn like the "nothing better to do all day" brigade on here I could see it quickly becoming rather tedious.

And you?.

To be honest, I have no problem with people spending their time on this forum. It is their time and totally up to them what they do with it. It wouldn't be much of a forum if nobody posted, just as it would be very boring if everyone agreed with everything that is said. The joys of Brexit have pretty much divided the country in half and there is lots of discussion about Brexit.

People getting upset and saying other people shouldn't post about Brexit just shows that they aren't interested in discussing Brexit, which makes me wonder why they even bother posting.

[sidicks]

Ghibli said:

To be honest, I have no problem with people spending their time on this forum. It is their time and totally up to them what they do with it. It wouldn't be much of a forum if nobody posted, just as it would be very boring if everyone agreed with everything that is said. The joys of Brexit have pretty much divided the country in half and there is lots of discussion about Brexit.

People getting upset and saying other people shouldn't post about Brexit just shows that they aren't interested in discussing Brexit, which makes me wonder why they even bother posting.

Posting your own opinion about Brexit for discussion purposes would be entirely appropriate, deliberately and repeatedly misrepresenting the opinions of others and making ignorant generalisations / lies is not. It’s pure trolling 101.

[Graemsay]

The Guardian have published the results of a set of ICM polls on Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/26/b...

The findings are that there's a growing desire for a second referendum, but opinion hasn't shifted greatly in the last 18 months. It's currently about 51% remain, 49% leave.

The editorial's states that the country is divided, and increasingly polarised. Whilst there is some movement between camps (and some of the shift in opinion is down to those who didn't vote last time), positions have tended to harden.

[mx5nut]

Graemsay said:

The findings are that there's a growing desire for a second referendum, but opinion hasn't shifted greatly in the last 18 months. It's currently about 51% remain, 49% leave.

Or as the average blinkered Leaver would say - a clear mandate for "Hard Remain"

Edited by lids.mod on Saturday 27th January 15:03

[anonymous-user]

Graemsay said:

The Guardian have published the results of a set of ICM polls on Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/26/b...

The findings are that there's a growing desire for a second referendum, but opinion hasn't shifted greatly in the last 18 months. It's currently about 51% remain, 49% leave.

The editorial's states that the country is divided, and increasingly polarised. Whilst there is some movement between camps (and some of the shift in opinion is down to those who didn't vote last time), positions have tended to harden.

Another one below.

https://news.sky.com/story/you-decide-should-there...

[powerstroke]

mx5nut said:

Or as the average blinkered Leaver would say - a clear mandate for "Hard Remain"

Edited by lids.mod on Saturday 27th January 15:03

Why don't you post when you have less time ??

[Sway]

Those calling for another vote - what actually are you calling for? There's a bit of hypocrisy stating 'the question was crap and this isn't what the people wanted' with so many options for what another vote could look like.

Is it a straight rerun of the last vote? Leave or Remain?

Is it 'what type of exit'? Negotiated deal or WTO?

Is it deal or remain under same terms as before, with yet another vote if that remain option isn't available?

Or is it a 4 way? WTO leave /negotiated leave /remain as close as today (coming back if that's not on offer) /full fat remain, disband Westminster and Brussels is in charge? Perhaps with the added fun of throwing in an alternative vote type second choice just to muddy things further?

Or maybe a 3 way - WTO leave /negotiated leave /actually can i have EEA leave?

What is it you actually want?

[anonymous-user]

Sway said:

Those calling for another vote - what actually are you calling for? There's a bit of hypocrisy stating 'the question was crap and this isn't what the people wanted' with so many options for what another vote could look like.

Is it a straight rerun of the last vote? Leave or Remain?

Is it 'what type of exit'? Negotiated deal or WTO?

Is it deal or remain under same terms as before, with yet another vote if that remain option isn't available?

Or is it a 4 way? WTO leave /negotiated leave /remain as close as today (coming back if that's not on offer) /full fat remain, disband Westminster and Brussels is in charge? Perhaps with the added fun of throwing in an alternative vote type second choice just to muddy things further?

Or maybe a 3 way - WTO leave /negotiated leave /actually can i have EEA leave?

What is it you actually want?

I think remain would offer to stay as we are. Leave would need to offer something they can actually provide. As to what this would be is anyone's guess.

[Not-The-Messiah]

I suspect and worry if the public do get another vote it will be on the lines of. "Are you happy with negotiated deal?"

Say yes we carry on with that deal even if it's a sellout, still in the EU but out in name alone.

Say no we stay in the EU on the pretence of trying to negotiate another deal which will never happen.

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Tuesday 30th January 21:18

[Sway]

Ghibli said:

I think remain would offer to stay as we are. Leave would need to offer something they can actually provide. As to what this would be is anyone's guess.

How can the British government offer something in a referendum that is subject to bilateral agreement? That is exactly the same as my opinion from before the ref (and still today) that a comprehensive FTA can be agreed covering goods and core services.

You also didn't answer the question - what referendum do you want out of the four potential ones I listed, or even another possibility I've missed?

[confused_buyer]

What I find slightly strange about the referendum on the deal argument is that many people arguing that referendums are a poor way to decide very complicated and detailed things such as membership of the EU are the same ones arguing we should have a referendum on probably one of the most detailed and technical agreements the UK ever has or is likely to enter into.

Does anyone think such a referendum would end up being about the deal anyway? Of course it wouldn't, it would be about lots of other things.

As regards the ICM poll it is a bit odd in that they don't seem to be weighting for likelihood to vote and the very slight Remain lead is down to people who couldn't be arsed to vote last time now saying they would. That seems a bit doubtful. What it does re-enforce though is that the country is indeed pretty much split very much along June 2016 lines and not a whole lot has changed.

[SpeckledJim]

confused_buyer said:

What it does re-enforce though is that the country is indeed pretty much split very much along June 2016 lines and not a whole lot has changed.

In a new referendum, I believe virtually everyone who voted first time would vote again, and almost none of them have changed their minds.

Then on remain side, you can add the kids who didn't realise it was happening first time round, or did realise but didn't really care - lots of them would turn out for another referendum.

Matching them on the leave side are the casual leavers who didn't vote first time because they didn't think a win was really possible, and other leavers who will have been mobilised by the words and deeds from Brussels in the last year, and who will want to counter the increased engagement of the youth.

I think it would be close, again.

Not that it's going to happen.

[confused_buyer]

SpeckledJim said:

I think it would be close, again.

Not that it's going to happen.

Agree on both of those. I'm not 100% convinced many more would turn out - interesting story today that the surge in young voters in the GE was a myth and in fact turnout in the 18-24 bracket was pretty much the same as every other election. People who couldn't be bothered last time probably still won't be bothered.

You will of course get a few Remain votes going to Leave from people who favoured Leave but were scared of the economy warning and probably a few from Leave who are disappointed that some of the carrot items put forward by Leave have not happened.

All in all it would probably be about the same - most probably a small Leave win but even if the other way simply confirm the issue is split and settle absolutely nothing at all.

[Zod]

SpeckledJim said:

In a new referendum, I believe virtually everyone who voted first time would vote again, and almost none of them have changed their minds.

Then on remain side, you can add the kids who didn't realise it was happening first time round, or did realise but didn't really care - lots of them would turn out for another referendum.

Matching them on the leave side are the casual leavers who didn't vote first time because they didn't think a win was really possible, and other leavers who will have been mobilised by the words and deeds from Brussels in the last year, and who will want to counter the increased engagement of the youth.

I think it would be close, again.

Not that it's going to happen.

You are forgetting the dead Leave voters.

[alfie2244]

Zod said:

SpeckledJim said:

In a new referendum, I believe virtually everyone who voted first time would vote again, and almost none of them have changed their minds.

Then on remain side, you can add the kids who didn't realise it was happening first time round, or did realise but didn't really care - lots of them would turn out for another referendum.

Matching them on the leave side are the casual leavers who didn't vote first time because they didn't think a win was really possible, and other leavers who will have been mobilised by the words and deeds from Brussels in the last year, and who will want to counter the increased engagement of the youth.

I think it would be close, again.

Not that it's going to happen.

You are forgetting the dead Leave voters.

What about the voters that have moved from being young to now being old?...whatever age that is?

[barryrs]

Zod said:

You are forgetting the dead Leave voters.

A vote to remain meant eternal youth; is that an EU policy?