Discussion
Tired said:
If you're a religious person, and you approve of male circumcision because your religion tells you to, just say so.
I'll absolutely think less of you as a result, but what do you care, you're going to heaven (or wherever) and I'm not.
But to pretend there's any other justifiable reason for it in this day and age, unless it's actually required for medical reasons, is quite concerning.
Also, I'm not clued up on the PC terms, but if you're jewish, what's wrong with being referred to as a Jew? What's offensive about it?
Do Christian's get upset when they're called a Christian? Do followers of Islam get upset for being called a Muslim?
Because a certain group always want to be the biggest "Victims" . But what a great post and I agree . Any parent are Delusional idiots if they would wish to do this in the name of a stupid belief that has never ever has had any proof to show any form of GOD exists . I would love to see a court case in the UK . A child takes his parents and their "Church " to a court over the matter . I truly want to see this .I'll absolutely think less of you as a result, but what do you care, you're going to heaven (or wherever) and I'm not.
But to pretend there's any other justifiable reason for it in this day and age, unless it's actually required for medical reasons, is quite concerning.
Also, I'm not clued up on the PC terms, but if you're jewish, what's wrong with being referred to as a Jew? What's offensive about it?
Do Christian's get upset when they're called a Christian? Do followers of Islam get upset for being called a Muslim?
herewego said:
Sorry I should have put a smiley on it, I was being a bit facetious but I don't know how jews or jewish people view those words, it was idle speculation, it doesn't interest me that much.
I took you completely literally, I didn't realise you were joking!
If you're Jewish, and find the word Jew offensive, the issue is probably with your own sense of identity, rather than with the way you perceive others to see you. That's just hiding from the problem, by accusing others of bigotry.
Anyway, the ten commandments, if you're Christian, the 5 pillars of Islam and ( I just googled this) the 613 commandments of Judaism, can all more of less be boiled down, with a few unneccessary exceptions to something like:
"Treat others how you'd like to be treated"
Or even further simplified to:
"Don't be a dick"
I think most agree, cutting parts off people for no valid medical reason, is a bit of a dick move. So we should probably stop it. In my opinion.
jakesmith said:
I would argue that 'harm' is only caused if the person suffers which I am arguing they do not
You home is not harmed by you knocking down a non-functional superfluous wall on your driveway that you do not need and don't miss once gone
Regarding the loss of sexual sensation, if, as I'm assuming (sorry not reading back to check), you're circumcised and it was done when you were a baby, then you'll have no idea what you're missing, so you can't really be sure that the foreskin does nothing can you?You home is not harmed by you knocking down a non-functional superfluous wall on your driveway that you do not need and don't miss once gone
I simply explained the anecdotal experience of the one person I know who had a later life circumcision that they did lose an element of sexual sensation. They're only aware of it because they had a higher sensation before the circumcision than they do now. What they're left with isn't enough that they would claim to have sexual difficulties, but it's not as good as before.
I know someone else who was done as a baby, he says he believes he is missing out on a sensation (of course it's hard for him to be sure), but he discussed it once with his uncut boyfriend, and to put it bluntly,things which his boyfriend found very pleasurable didn't really register much on his radar.
Regarding the deaths due to circumcision question, here's an alternative link that you may deem more credible than the one someone else posted earlier, it suggests a death rate of 1 in every 49,166 procedures.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30066572
Can I ask, is this an elective procedure you'd choose to have done as an adult if it hadn't already been done as a baby?
wc98 said:
jakesmith said:
Thankfully, the worthy concept of protecting one person, is not the basis for changing legislation.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6122a2.htm?s_cid=mm6122a2_wHerpes simplex virus (HSV) infection commonly causes "cold sores" (HSV type 1 [HSV-1]) and genital herpes (HSV-1 or HSV type 2 [HSV-2]); HSV infection in newborns can result in death or permanent disability. During November 2000–December 2011, a total of 11 newborn males had laboratory-confirmed HSV infection in the weeks following out-of-hospital Jewish ritual circumcision, investigators from the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) learned. Ten of the 11 newborns were hospitalized; two died.
only 2 dead babies out of 11 that contracted the disease died. is that acceptable to you ?
Blue Oval84 said:
Can I ask, is this an elective procedure you'd choose to have done as an adult if it hadn't already been done as a baby?
Imagine if that was the case, and the "victim" instead got to choose for themselves once they were 18 if they wanted it done or not. That would pretty much wipe out the ritualistic / non-therapeutic practice in one fell swoop.
Tired said:
If you're Jewish, and find the word Jew offensive, the issue is probably with your own sense of identity, rather than with the way you perceive others to see you. That's just hiding from the problem, by accusing others of bigotry.
No, I have no problem being refered to as Jewish, just not being refered to as 'a Jew' in the way that you wouldn't call someone 'a black'. I've already said this onceTired said:
Anyway... , the ten commandments, if you're Christian, the 5 pillars of Islam and ( I just googled this) the 613 commandments of Judaism, can all more of less be boiled down...
It's just as well that the total sum of all human knowledge is available to anyone via the internet and even more impressive that you are able to condense the teaching of 3 major religions into one pithy phrase but there is a little more to it than that and the ritual is important to many however hard it is for you to fathom. I would guess that you don't believe in any of it. Some people and especially on here where religion is held in utter disdain, hold it responsible for lots of loss of life & atrocities etc, as per the 'sky fairy' consensus on here. I have a different view and think there is a human nature issue and relgion is just the excuse or tool used by the power & money hungry people and organisations. It is interesting that there is much bemoaning on here about the loss of family values & social cohesion, I would have thought declining church attendance over the last few generations would feed into this perhaps.
tannhauser said:
What a bellend. Quite an apt topic tbh.
What a vauous turd you are. An obvious and unfunny comment that adds nothing to the discussion. NormarkSuperswede said:
And most women like the feel of the skin moving backwards and forwards over the head during sex .Its the added bonus
Right that sounds like a thoroughly evidenced statement. 'Most women' really. Maybe all 3 of them were lying to you. Maybe the added bonus for women having an encounter with a circumcised man is not having the risk of a smelly accumulation of knob cheese to deal with, in fact maybe circumsised men are more likely to get blown. I live in hope.Dromedary66 said:
it is very much needed, it has thousands of nerves and protects the bell-end, otherwise it gets completely ketatinized and has the sensitivity of shoe leather.
I'm nearly 40, when will the leathering begin? Soft as a new born baby lamb at the moment.Dromedary66 said:
And actually the intention in many cultures years back was to cause suffering and prevent masturbation which was seen as sinful. Lots of similarities to FGM there as well.
'actually the intention in many cultures' is a very vague statement. My understanding is in the Jewish faith it originates due to hygiene concerns from living in desert and highly dusty environments. I can't speak for other faiths.wc98 said:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6122a2...
Herpes simplex virus (HSV) infection commonly causes "cold sores" (HSV type 1 [HSV-1]) and genital herpes (HSV-1 or HSV type 2 [HSV-2]); HSV infection in newborns can result in death or permanent disability. During November 2000–December 2011, a total of 11 newborn males had laboratory-confirmed HSV infection in the weeks following out-of-hospital Jewish ritual circumcision, investigators from the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) learned. Ten of the 11 newborns were hospitalized; two died.
only 2 dead babies out of 11 that contracted the disease died. is that acceptable to you ?
Of course not it is terrible. Were the circumstances here normal? I stated before that if the previously quoted statistic of 1.3% of circumcised babies dying as a result of circumcision could be shown I would change my stance. I'm not a big advocate of circumcision. Where is the evidence. 2 deaths is 2 tragedies but what size pool is that from. WOUld you ban all uneccesary car journeys to reduce the daily UK death toll of 10 people or does your disdain for (a particular?) religion colour your opinion at allHerpes simplex virus (HSV) infection commonly causes "cold sores" (HSV type 1 [HSV-1]) and genital herpes (HSV-1 or HSV type 2 [HSV-2]); HSV infection in newborns can result in death or permanent disability. During November 2000–December 2011, a total of 11 newborn males had laboratory-confirmed HSV infection in the weeks following out-of-hospital Jewish ritual circumcision, investigators from the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) learned. Ten of the 11 newborns were hospitalized; two died.
only 2 dead babies out of 11 that contracted the disease died. is that acceptable to you ?
amusingduck said:
otolith said:
otolith said:
jakesmith said:
Countdown said:
Speaking as somebody who was circumcised when very young I can honestly say Ive never felt there was anything missing.
Me too. I think that people who attempt to conflate FGM with circumcision have a nasty motivation for doing so, there is no comparison between the two as far as I am concernedFGM victims suffer for their whole lives for starters. A lifetime of suffering from a misogynistic procedure designed to make sex unpleasurable, removing the pleasure of one of nature's most enjoyable gifts to humanity and leaving them exposed to a lifetime of pain, infection, disease.
One thing that is interesting is that a number of people have taken my views to task on this in an entirely expected way. Perfectly valid views and of course the occasional simpleton jumping on the bandwagon to get the cheap thrill of joining in with denigrating someone else's opinion but without going as far as making the effort to say something interesting. But none of my earlier significant counter arguments have been taken up or addressed by anyone and as such it seems pointless me continuing on this thread.
Because, if the main thrust of the argument is to ban a potentially risky procedure on a minor who can't consent - would you ban people from taking babies on uneccesary car journeys due to the much greater risk. Or make it illegal for pregnant mothers to smoke or drink whilst pregnant. Or is it just your anti-religious bias causing your strength of opinion on this matter, whilst allowing all these other much more harmful discretionary activities to continue. Or was there any evidence that 1.3% of circumcised babies died as a result of the procedure. That was cited earlier and I said I would reconsider my opinion were it to be evidenced but I haven't seen anything on it so far
As stated before I am not religious, have not had my son circumcised and actually don't really care one way or the other, my issue is with those attempting to conflate it with FGM which is how this thread started and I see as utterly different in every way
jakesmith said:
wc98 said:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6122a2...
Herpes simplex virus (HSV) infection commonly causes "cold sores" (HSV type 1 [HSV-1]) and genital herpes (HSV-1 or HSV type 2 [HSV-2]); HSV infection in newborns can result in death or permanent disability. During November 2000–December 2011, a total of 11 newborn males had laboratory-confirmed HSV infection in the weeks following out-of-hospital Jewish ritual circumcision, investigators from the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) learned. Ten of the 11 newborns were hospitalized; two died.
only 2 dead babies out of 11 that contracted the disease died. is that acceptable to you ?
Of course not it is terrible. Were the circumstances here normal? I stated before that if the previously quoted statistic of 1.3% of circumcised babies dying as a result of circumcision could be shown I would change my stance. I'm not a big advocate of circumcision. Where is the evidence. 2 deaths is 2 tragedies but what size pool is that from. WOUld you ban all uneccesary car journeys to reduce the daily UK death toll of 10 people or does your disdain for (a particular?) religion colour your opinion at allHerpes simplex virus (HSV) infection commonly causes "cold sores" (HSV type 1 [HSV-1]) and genital herpes (HSV-1 or HSV type 2 [HSV-2]); HSV infection in newborns can result in death or permanent disability. During November 2000–December 2011, a total of 11 newborn males had laboratory-confirmed HSV infection in the weeks following out-of-hospital Jewish ritual circumcision, investigators from the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) learned. Ten of the 11 newborns were hospitalized; two died.
only 2 dead babies out of 11 that contracted the disease died. is that acceptable to you ?
i wouldn't say i have disdain for religion ,each to their own and all that,i just don't understand the belief part given modern day access to information. i would however ban all religious education in schools, and along with circumcision, leave it up to young adults over the age of 18 to decide when they are mature enough to do so.
jakesmith said:
amusingduck said:
otolith said:
otolith said:
jakesmith said:
Countdown said:
Speaking as somebody who was circumcised when very young I can honestly say Ive never felt there was anything missing.
Me too. I think that people who attempt to conflate FGM with circumcision have a nasty motivation for doing so, there is no comparison between the two as far as I am concernedFGM victims suffer for their whole lives for starters. A lifetime of suffering from a misogynistic procedure designed to make sex unpleasurable, removing the pleasure of one of nature's most enjoyable gifts to humanity and leaving them exposed to a lifetime of pain, infection, disease.
One thing that is interesting is that a number of people have taken my views to task on this in an entirely expected way. Perfectly valid views and of course the occasional simpleton jumping on the bandwagon to get the cheap thrill of joining in with denigrating someone else's opinion but without going as far as making the effort to say something interesting. But none of my earlier significant counter arguments have been taken up or addressed by anyone and as such it seems pointless me continuing on this thread.
Because, if the main thrust of the argument is to ban a potentially risky procedure on a minor who can't consent - would you ban people from taking babies on uneccesary car journeys due to the much greater risk. Or make it illegal for pregnant mothers to smoke or drink whilst pregnant. Or is it just your anti-religious bias causing your strength of opinion on this matter, whilst allowing all these other much more harmful discretionary activities to continue. Or was there any evidence that 1.3% of circumcised babies died as a result of the procedure. That was cited earlier and I said I would reconsider my opinion were it to be evidenced but I haven't seen anything on it so far
As stated before I am not religious, have not had my son circumcised and actually don't really care one way or the other, my issue is with those attempting to conflate it with FGM which is how this thread started and I see as utterly different in every way
Hilarious that you justify it to yourself as anti-religious bias. Like this is some kind of proxy debate, via the medium of "stop mutilating babies". You know what they really mean though, don'tcha?
Your "whatabout" arguments are pure guff. I'm not at all surprised that they, too, revolve around denying or diminishing one's agency. Agency, evidently, is of low concern to you.
Pile on
I asked first!
amusingduck said:
jakesmith said:
Countdown said:
...
...wc98 said:
no, i wouldn't ban all car journey's with babies,they are a necessary part of life for the majority. circumcising a baby by an adult human being using their teeth is not a necessary requirement for any part of life, neither is doing it properly unless medically required, like my circumcision was.
i wouldn't say i have disdain for religion ,each to their own and all that,i just don't understand the belief part given modern day access to information. i would however ban all religious education in schools, and along with circumcision, leave it up to young adults over the age of 18 to decide when they are mature enough to do so.
Exactly.Its abuse to try and form a childs life via religion. Especially when parts of some religions means you dress kids like a scruffy business man and will not mix with other children. Make the women at a young age shave heads and wear wigs. or cover their faces . In fact some are brought up to ONLY have dealings with your own. Religion is for the messed up. Those to weak to realise they are been fooled .lets hope within the next 50 years, Religion starts to be the looked into very carefully and controlled i wouldn't say i have disdain for religion ,each to their own and all that,i just don't understand the belief part given modern day access to information. i would however ban all religious education in schools, and along with circumcision, leave it up to young adults over the age of 18 to decide when they are mature enough to do so.
jakesmith said:
No, I have no problem being refered to as Jewish, just not being refered to as 'a Jew' in the way that you wouldn't call someone 'a black'. I've already said this once
The word Jew is a Noun. You would call someone a Christian, a Muslim, or an atheist, just as you would a Jew.You wouldn't call someone a black, as the word black is an adjective. They're not comparable, and it's pathetic that you're trying to equate them, and make someone out as a bigot for it.
Tired said:
Anyway... , the ten commandments, if you're Christian, the 5 pillars of Islam and ( I just googled this) the 613 commandments of Judaism, can all more of less be boiled down...
jakesmith said:
It's just as well that the total sum of all human knowledge is available to anyone via the internet and even more impressive that you are able to condense the teaching of 3 major religions into one pithy phrase but there is a little more to it than that and the ritual is important to many however hard it is for you to fathom. I would guess that you don't believe in any of it. Some people and especially on here where religion is held in utter disdain, hold it responsible for lots of loss of life & atrocities etc, as per the 'sky fairy' consensus on here. I have a different view and think there is a human nature issue and relgion is just the excuse or tool used by the power & money hungry people and organisations.
It is interesting that there is much bemoaning on here about the loss of family values & social cohesion, I would have thought declining church attendance over the last few generations would feed into this perhaps.
Instead of 'frothing' as you like to accuse others of, why don't you tell me what's wrong with what I said? You've gotten awfully upset that I said we should all treat people nicely. That's an odd thing to get so angry about.It is interesting that there is much bemoaning on here about the loss of family values & social cohesion, I would have thought declining church attendance over the last few generations would feed into this perhaps.
Yep. imagine starting this s
t in 2019. You would be jailed. Its a sexual thing for the adults. look at the face of the man holding the child. he has just shot his load .No normal man would want to do this to a child. Religion hides some real evil buggers
t in 2019. You would be jailed. Its a sexual thing for the adults. look at the face of the man holding the child. he has just shot his load .No normal man would want to do this to a child. Religion hides some real evil buggers Edited by NormarkSuperswede on Wednesday 23 January 10:17
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well I couldn’t agree more with you, the knots people seem to get into on a topic that doesn’t even affect them are hilarious. Given that I’m the only person on this thread of 8 pages that has stated that I’m actually open to changing my position if any evidence to back up a claim previously made is presented (which hasn’t happed)
Given that I’ve been called a ‘bell end’ for staying my opinion and arguing my point
Given that someone has said that all Rabis and Priests like to suck babies cocks
Given that someone has said ‘most women prefer circumcised men’ which is highly dubious and sums up the intellectual level of the debate
Given that my counter arguments that follow the exact same logic as those being presented as against circumcision have been conveniently ignored or misrepresented (banning ‘uneccesary’ car journeys)
Given all these points you’ll forgive me if I bow out of your uncircumcised circle jerk and find something more productive or interesting to do. Shouldn’t be hard! Hope the thread remains interesting and active with everyone having the same opinion!
jakesmith said:
Well I couldn’t agree more with you, the knots people seem to get into on a topic that doesn’t even affect them are hilarious.
Given that I’m the only person on this thread of 8 pages that has stated that I’m actually open to changing my position if any evidence to back up a claim previously made is presented (which hasn’t happed)
Given that I’ve been called a ‘bell end’ for staying my opinion and arguing my point
Given that someone has said that all Rabis and Priests like to suck babies cocks
Given that someone has said ‘most women prefer circumcised men’ which is highly dubious and sums up the intellectual level of the debate
Given that my counter arguments that follow the exact same logic as those being presented as against circumcision have been conveniently ignored or misrepresented (banning ‘uneccesary’ car journeys)
Given all these points you’ll forgive me if I bow out of your uncircumcised circle jerk and find something more productive or interesting to do. Shouldn’t be hard! Hope the thread remains interesting and active with everyone having the same opinion!
You support male genital mutilation, of baby boys not old enough to make the decision for themselves.Given that I’m the only person on this thread of 8 pages that has stated that I’m actually open to changing my position if any evidence to back up a claim previously made is presented (which hasn’t happed)
Given that I’ve been called a ‘bell end’ for staying my opinion and arguing my point
Given that someone has said that all Rabis and Priests like to suck babies cocks
Given that someone has said ‘most women prefer circumcised men’ which is highly dubious and sums up the intellectual level of the debate
Given that my counter arguments that follow the exact same logic as those being presented as against circumcision have been conveniently ignored or misrepresented (banning ‘uneccesary’ car journeys)
Given all these points you’ll forgive me if I bow out of your uncircumcised circle jerk and find something more productive or interesting to do. Shouldn’t be hard! Hope the thread remains interesting and active with everyone having the same opinion!
Any attempt to take the moral high ground here is going to fail miserably.
And the idea that people shouldn't take an interest in it, as they're not babies so not directly affected by this issue is frankly a disgusting stance for you to take.
Your counter arguments about car journeys are easily the most stupid thing I've read in my short time registered here. I can only assume it's a result of religious brainwashing, as there's no sane way to explain it.
You're welcome to your opinion, but stop trying to disguise it as anything other than a religious ritual that has no place in modern society. Your attempts at justification are pathetic.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff