The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)

The economic consequences of Brexit (Vol 2)

TOPIC CLOSED
TOPIC CLOSED
Author
Discussion

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
One of the hard Brexiteers above argues that the most important thing to do is to leave the Customs Union. This takes as an article of the policy that the UK must seek a situation in which a tariff barrier is erected. World free trade does not exist - different nations and different blocs erect various barriers. The EU has a tariff barrier around it, so saying that if the UK chooses to leave it is somehow the fault of the EU that the UK finds itself outside the barrier is plain daft. That sort of thinking encapsulates the sheer Alice in Wonderland fantastical nonsense of the entire Brexit position.
And the imposition of tariffs to 3rd country exports into the EU shouldn't be a surprise, after all we impose them now. Anyone claiming the EU is punishing us because we want to leave clearly is clutching at blame straws.

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Friday 22 September 10:11

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
London424 said:
...
The EU are threatening to erect a tariff barrier, because they have to be seen to punish the UK for leaving.

...
That is worth quoting because it is so barking crazy mad. Can Brexiteers really think this stuff? That the EU is inventing a special barrier that is targeted at the UK because the EU is pissed off? The teaching of some basics of economics and the world's trading systems in sixth forms is long overdue.

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
One of the hard Brexiteers above argues that the most important thing to do is to leave the Customs Union. This takes as an article of the policy that the UK must seek a situation in which a tariff barrier is erected. World free trade does not exist - different nations and different blocs erect various barriers. The EU has a tariff barrier around it, so saying that if the UK chooses to leave it is somehow the fault of the EU that the UK finds itself outside the barrier is plain daft. That sort of thinking encapsulates the sheer Alice in Wonderland fantastical nonsense of the entire Brexit position.
If we offer the EU a free trade deal and they refuse then that is their fault. Whose fault is it that the EU erects tariff barriers in the first place?

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
And the imposition of tariffs to 3rd country exports into the EU shouldn't be a surprise, after all we impose them now. Anyone claiming the EU is punishing us because we what to leave clearly is clutching at blame straws.
So there has been nothing from the EU suggesting that the UK can't be seen to get a good deal etc?

Eddie Strohacker

3,879 posts

85 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
If we offer the EU a free trade deal and they refuse then that is their fault. Whose fault is it that the EU erects tariff barriers in the first place?
What? Trade barriers in use globally are a fault? hippy

As we can see above, there bloody well should be.

KrissKross said:
Jimboka said:
Funny that, I know very few Brexit voters.
I doubt there are many in school.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
Breadvan72 said:
One of the hard Brexiteers above argues that the most important thing to do is to leave the Customs Union. This takes as an article of the policy that the UK must seek a situation in which a tariff barrier is erected. World free trade does not exist - different nations and different blocs erect various barriers. The EU has a tariff barrier around it, so saying that if the UK chooses to leave it is somehow the fault of the EU that the UK finds itself outside the barrier is plain daft. That sort of thinking encapsulates the sheer Alice in Wonderland fantastical nonsense of the entire Brexit position.
If we offer the EU a free trade deal and they refuse then that is their fault. Whose fault is it that the EU erects tariff barriers in the first place?
More pie in the sky thinking. International trade simply doesn't work on the basis that everyone says "yaaaaay" free trade but just a few meanies decide to sulk and impose barriers. In addition, negotiations rarely work on the basis that one party says "you have to give us everything that we want" and the other party says "OK then".

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
sidicks said:
So there has been nothing from the EU suggesting that the UK can't be seen to get a good deal etc?
Is the EU proposing to treat the UK any different to any other 3rd country it deal with?

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
sidicks said:
So there has been nothing from the EU suggesting that the UK can't be seen to get a good deal etc?
Is the EU proposing to treat the UK any different to any other 3rd country it deal with?
Those 3rd countries don't have existing arrangements in place.

confused_buyer

6,610 posts

180 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:


As for holding Government to account, how do you hold to account a Government that rules by decree? EU legislation receives Parliamentary scrutiny. Henry VIII rules (not new, but set to grow in abundance) receive minimal or no Parliamentary scrutiny. How is life under the GRB going to be more democratic than life in an organisation in which several democratically elected Governments have meetings and decide stuff?
What a load of rubbish. Firstly you hold a Government to account through elections. We've had two in the last two years plus a referendum. How many more do you want?

Secondly there are few new H VII rules proposed and those which are relate to small areas and have a sunset clause of 2 years. Thirdly most of them will probably be watered down by the MPs which apparently aren't able to scrutinise them.

Because we have a Government will no or a small majority and have had since 2010 the reality is that Parliament has had far more opportunity to hold the Government to account in the last 7 years than it has in the previous 30 (excepting 92-97). Compare the current situation to the massive Blair and Thatcher majorities where the Government could basically do what it wanted and Parliament has vastly more sway.

shielsy

826 posts

128 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
shielsy said:
jsf said:
What we are doing now will set the countries direction for a long period, I have never looked at Brexit as a short term change, its far more about what kind of politics and economy the next generations will live through. The short term costs of implementation are insignificant.
The implementation costs only remain insignificant if the outcome is a success
May I ask as to your definition of success?
Of course. A successful outcome on Brexit can be a personal matter.

For me, I care a lot about the economy and I welcome freedom of movement. They happen to be two of the things at risk in a post-Brexit world. So success for me would be a prosperous economy and free movement.

Other people may see freedom of movement as a bad thing and maybe the most important "issue". For those guys maybe all that is required for success is the end of free movement, at any cost.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
If we offer the EU a free trade deal and they refuse then that is their fault. Whose fault is it that the EU erects tariff barriers in the first place?
I'm sure they will eventually.

We should join the back of the queue to negotiate one with them I guess.

confused_buyer

6,610 posts

180 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Oh, and just to add EU Directives receive some (worthless as they have to enact them anyway) Parliamentary scrutiny. EU Regulations receive no Parliamentary Scrutiny and become law automatically.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
London424 said:
...
The EU are threatening to erect a tariff barrier, because they have to be seen to punish the UK for leaving.

...
That is worth quoting because it is so barking crazy mad. Can Brexiteers really think this stuff? That the EU is inventing a special barrier that is targeted at the UK because the EU is pissed off? The teaching of some basics of economics and the world's trading systems in sixth forms is long overdue.
The EU is wanting to put in place something that they have not suggested with any of the other trade discussion they've entered into with other countries.

Trade discussions with Canada, US, etc have had no mention of Free Movement of People attached to it. Yet that seems to be a sticking point with the UK.

There is nothing preventing the EU agreeing to free trade immediately under the conditions that currently exist.

Unless you can point out what they are?

wisbech

2,939 posts

120 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
London424 said:
The UK doesn't want to erect a tariff barrier. The UK wants free trade.

The EU are threatening to erect a tariff barrier, because they have to be seen to punish the UK for leaving.

HTH.
Aren't there significant factions in the U.K. that would be pretty happy with messing with free trade? I remember during the Port Talbot steel discussions people getting annoyed that EU rules wouldn't allow government aid/ bailouts etc. Tariffs are just one factor in free trade (a major one, true)

It isn't hard to imagine a populist/ protectionist government being successful in the U.K.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
sidicks said:
Those 3rd countries don't have existing arrangements in place.
Which cease to apply once we leave.


sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
Which cease to apply once we leave.
Only if the EU want them to cease...

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
London424 said:
The EU is wanting to put in place something that they have not suggested with any of the other trade discussion they've entered into with other countries.

Trade discussions with Canada, US, etc have had no mention of Free Movement of People attached to it. Yet that seems to be a sticking point with the UK.

There is nothing preventing the EU agreeing to free trade immediately under the conditions that currently exist.

Unless you can point out what they are?
See

sidicks said:
Those 3rd countries don't have existing arrangements in place.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
wisbech said:
Aren't there significant factions in the U.K. that would be pretty happy with messing with free trade? I remember during the Port Talbot steel discussions people getting annoyed that EU rules wouldn't allow government aid/ bailouts etc. Tariffs are just one factor in free trade (a major one, true)
It is worthy of note and beyond dispute that rules relating to this are poorly or selectively policed. Furthermore, the failure to get EU accounts audited hinges around the tricky, associated issue of dispersal of grant monies and their use.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
London424 said:
There is nothing preventing the EU agreeing to free trade immediately under the conditions that currently exist.
Cake.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Friday 22nd September 2017
quotequote all
sidicks said:
Only if the EU want them to cease...
Oh, and I thought it was us that's leaving.

Stop blaming the EU for the consequences of our actions.
TOPIC CLOSED
TOPIC CLOSED