Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 4

Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 4

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durbster

10,223 posts

221 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
El stovey said:
turbobloke said:
A good point, there are several well-qualified scientists in this thread and more still on PH in general.

Presumably by implicitly / appearing to exclude yourself (you're a PHer contributing to this thread) you're not a scientist.
Could your name a few and their area of expertise
? I’ve asked a few times on this thread and there’s apparently no climate scientists and nobody else seems willing to state their relevant expertise.
Having seen you point out the futility of your own question (!) it's also been done before anyway - and how can you expect any one PHer to divulge details of other PHers without their consent?
I generally don't read your posts in here because they're bks but I noticed this panicked retreat and it reminded me of when you were asked you to provide the source for the mysterious data that you constantly refer. The "empirical data" which apparently validates your position, yet contradicts every other data source, isn't provided by any known organisation and isn't publicly available online.

As I recall, you couldn't share it because it was in a box in your loft or something. laugh

El Stovey, I don't know the background of posters actively participating but I know there are professional climate scientists on PH. I spoke to one some time ago who had naturally looked into this thread, but having read a few pages could see the futility of trying to reason with them so didn't bother participating.

That said, I think we can see from the quality of the thread just how well qualified many of its participants are. hehe

mybrainhurts

90,809 posts

254 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
durbster said:
Yah boo
Good of you to drop in, always nice to bump into a real sycophant...wavey



LongQ

13,864 posts

232 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
durbster said:
El Stovey, I don't know the background of posters actively participating but I know there are professional climate scientists on PH. I spoke to one some time ago who had naturally looked into this thread, but having read a few pages could see the futility of trying to reason with them so didn't bother participating.
Why, if you were seeking out scientists active on PH for some reason, would you wish for them to participate in a tread that is intended to be primarily about political impacts and affects of public policy on what the so called "law makers" consider to be Climate Change?

Why not take the person to the longer lifed Science Thread and get him and his professional knowledge to reference his published papers, bring is his colleagues and, eventually, perhaps, persuade all those involved with the more "polluting" aspects of sort of personal interests and hobbies for which most people seem to arrive, that they should stop driving anything that uses fossil fuels, stop using any equipment that derives energy from fossil fuels, definitely stop any ideas of global travel especially flying
and avoid purchasing anything that, as a finished product or a polluting raw material, arrives by sea polluting the oceans along the way?

Now that would impress me somewhat if offered with cogent rational arguments and a personal commitment to setting an example without preaching or the usual overt activism for the sake of appearing to be an activist.

It's disappointing that someone who might be able to add something to a scientific discussion is not pointed in the best direction or indeed, feels unable to make a case for something he or she (likely He being this is PH) may be passionate about in his private life as well as his working life.

You could of course point us to other places where he is involved with the discussion, either publically or privately.

robinessex

11,046 posts

180 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
What's a professional climate scientist? PS. Noah was an amateur. The Titanic was built by professionals!!

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
LongQ said:
durbster said:
El Stovey, I don't know the background of posters actively participating but I know there are professional climate scientists on PH. I spoke to one some time ago who had naturally looked into this thread, but having read a few pages could see the futility of trying to reason with them so didn't bother participating.
Why, if you were seeking out scientists active on PH for some reason, would you wish for them to participate in a tread that is intended to be primarily about political impacts and affects of public policy on what the so called "law makers" consider to be Climate Change?

Why not take the person to the longer lifed Science Thread and get him and his professional knowledge to reference his published papers, bring is his colleagues and, eventually, perhaps, persuade all those involved with the more "polluting" aspects of sort of personal interests and hobbies for which most people seem to arrive, that they should stop driving anything that uses fossil fuels, stop using any equipment that derives energy from fossil fuels, definitely stop any ideas of global travel especially flying
and avoid purchasing anything that, as a finished product or a polluting raw material, arrives by sea polluting the oceans along the way?

Now that would impress me somewhat if offered with cogent rational arguments and a personal commitment to setting an example without preaching or the usual overt activism for the sake of appearing to be an activist.

It's disappointing that someone who might be able to add something to a scientific discussion is not pointed in the best direction or indeed, feels unable to make a case for something he or she (likely He being this is PH) may be passionate about in his private life as well as his working life.

You could of course point us to other places where he is involved with the discussion, either publically or privately.
I think the point is scientists don’t obviously post on this thread because it’s mainly enthusiasts saying the majority of scientists are untrustworthy and wrong and on the take etc.

Turbobloke corrected us and said there actually was scientists and climate experts posting in this thread. I was indeed surprised and asked who but understandably it’s a secret and no more information was forthcoming.

To me, what makes PHs great is the wealth of knowledge and different backgrounds posters come from. If I want to speak to doctors or accountants or architects or IT experts, the site has them freely offering advice and their knowledge. They even appear happy to reveal their professions. It helps posters reading and asking questions establish who knows what they’re talking about and who is just blagging. It’s actually very important to know. Obviously the climate politics thread scientists are sadly more secretive about their expertise. .

This climate thread doesn’t seem to actually have any of them which is odd when people here are aparently in possession of evidence that could overturn scientific consensus. It’s incredible really that the uncovering of the biggest fraud in the history of science could have its roots here but nobody is willing or able to actually do any exposing, despite being A) scientists and B) in possession of this data.

You’d think PHs scientists would leap at the opportunity? I know I would if I had irrefutable evidence of some kind of global fraud.



anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
robinessex said:
What's a professional climate scientist? PS. Noah was an amateur. The Titanic was built by professionals!!
If you had to cross the Atlantic and I gave you the choice of two ships. One was built buy an amateur and one was built by professionals, which one would you get on?

Imagine you or one of you family was ill and needed a big operation or life saving treatment.

Would you rather get medical advice from a qualified medical practitioner following medical consensus or from someone on PHs who was googling alternative medicine blogs?



Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 2nd August 22:40

LongQ

13,864 posts

232 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
El stovey said:
You’d think PHs scientists would leap at the opportunity? I know I would if I had irrefutable evidence of some kind of global fraud.
Based on durbster's post it seems not.

Of course when you consider that there is very unlikely to be irrefutable proof of anything climate related in a Science discussion for an extremely long time - several generations at best even to conclude an agreement that nothing was happening of any consequence should that turn out to be the case - it's hardly surprising that an informed and thinking scientist might not be able to see the point of the discussion right now. Many more decades of data required. And perhaps a lot more real active research rather than statistical meta data analysis of very few data sets of any sort.

Should there no be armies of scientists out there marching around the world looking for useful information to assess?

Why is it that we can seemingy justify multiple GPS satellite systems but so few new satellites to monitor the various specialist aspects of all of the parts of science that go to make up what has recently become collected into a heading of Climate Change?

Is it more convenient for some unspecified reason to not have new data or many more new opportunities to attempt to better understand the many parts of the planetary climate that are not at all well understood? Some would have it that CC is the number one risk afflicting the world.So why does a multitude of GPS systems take precedence in terms of budget and future space junk?? After all, in the main GPS only encourages travel for the masses and that, surely, cannot be a good thing can it?

That said I can understand why many scientist would prefer to or need to avoid making or implying any politically associatable connects recorded on the internet. Even those who may at some point have previously connected with durbster.


mondeoman

11,430 posts

265 months

Thursday 2nd August 2018
quotequote all
El stovey said:
LongQ said:
durbster said:
El Stovey, I don't know the background of posters actively participating but I know there are professional climate scientists on PH. I spoke to one some time ago who had naturally looked into this thread, but having read a few pages could see the futility of trying to reason with them so didn't bother participating.
Why, if you were seeking out scientists active on PH for some reason, would you wish for them to participate in a tread that is intended to be primarily about political impacts and affects of public policy on what the so called "law makers" consider to be Climate Change?

Why not take the person to the longer lifed Science Thread and get him and his professional knowledge to reference his published papers, bring is his colleagues and, eventually, perhaps, persuade all those involved with the more "polluting" aspects of sort of personal interests and hobbies for which most people seem to arrive, that they should stop driving anything that uses fossil fuels, stop using any equipment that derives energy from fossil fuels, definitely stop any ideas of global travel especially flying
and avoid purchasing anything that, as a finished product or a polluting raw material, arrives by sea polluting the oceans along the way?

Now that would impress me somewhat if offered with cogent rational arguments and a personal commitment to setting an example without preaching or the usual overt activism for the sake of appearing to be an activist.

It's disappointing that someone who might be able to add something to a scientific discussion is not pointed in the best direction or indeed, feels unable to make a case for something he or she (likely He being this is PH) may be passionate about in his private life as well as his working life.

You could of course point us to other places where he is involved with the discussion, either publically or privately.
I think the point is scientists don’t obviously post on this thread because it’s mainly enthusiasts saying the majority of scientists are untrustworthy and wrong and on the take etc.

Turbobloke corrected us and said there actually was scientists and climate experts posting in this thread. I was indeed surprised and asked who but understandably it’s a secret and no more information was forthcoming.

To me, what makes PHs great is the wealth of knowledge and different backgrounds posters come from. If I want to speak to doctors or accountants or architects or IT experts, the site has them freely offering advice and their knowledge. They even appear happy to reveal their professions. It helps posters reading and asking questions establish who knows what they’re talking about and who is just blagging. It’s actually very important to know. Obviously the climate politics thread scientists are sadly more secretive about their expertise. .

This climate thread doesn’t seem to actually have any of them which is odd when people here are aparently in possession of evidence that could overturn scientific consensus. It’s incredible really that the uncovering of the biggest fraud in the history of science could have its roots here but nobody is willing or able to actually do any exposing, despite being A) scientists and B) in possession of this data.

You’d think PHs scientists would leap at the opportunity? I know I would if I had irrefutable evidence of some kind of global fraud.
Surely the Climate Professional would welcome the opportunity to correct the fallacies on the science thread?

Keep the politics out of it, do the science in the right place....

TheFlyingBanana

16,484 posts

243 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
Has anyone noticed how hot it is though?

Phew! It really is a scorcher! And those Portugeezers and Spaniards are frying.

Just sayin'


Kccv23highliftcam

1,783 posts

74 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
TheFlyingBanana said:
Has anyone noticed how hot it is though?

Phew! It really is a scorcher! And those Portugeezers and Spaniards are frying.

Just sayin'
well here's a thing.. smile



rofl

robinessex

11,046 posts

180 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
El stovey said:
robinessex said:
What's a professional climate scientist? PS. Noah was an amateur. The Titanic was built by professionals!!
If you had to cross the Atlantic and I gave you the choice of two ships. One was built buy an amateur and one was built by professionals, which one would you get on?

Imagine you or one of you family was ill and needed a big operation or life saving treatment.

Would you rather get medical advice from a qualified medical practitioner following medical consensus or from someone on PHs who was googling alternative medicine blogs?



Edited by El stovey on Thursday 2nd August 22:40
That's nailed your sense of humout to the mast !!

durbster

10,223 posts

221 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
LongQ said:
durbster said:
El Stovey, I don't know the background of posters actively participating but I know there are professional climate scientists on PH. I spoke to one some time ago who had naturally looked into this thread, but having read a few pages could see the futility of trying to reason with them so didn't bother participating.
Why, if you were seeking out scientists active on PH for some reason, would you wish for them to participate in a tread that is intended to be primarily about political impacts and affects of public policy on what the so called "law makers" consider to be Climate Change?
I didn't seek anyone out (how exactly would I do that?). I just got a PM from a climate scientist who basically wanted to say that it's not worth dismantling the points raised here because the only people who need to hear it are the ones who simply aren't interested and will only respond with abuse.

And that is quite obvious. It's the same points raised by the cult today that were raised on page 1 and have been taken apart countless times since. The only difference is we now have several years worth of additional data and evidence that proves them wrong, so they look even more ridiculous.

turbobloke

103,741 posts

259 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
durbster said:
LongQ said:
durbster said:
El Stovey, I don't know the background of posters actively participating but I know there are professional climate scientists on PH. I spoke to one some time ago who had naturally looked into this thread, but having read a few pages could see the futility of trying to reason with them so didn't bother participating.
Why, if you were seeking out scientists active on PH for some reason, would you wish for them to participate in a tread that is intended to be primarily about political impacts and affects of public policy on what the so called "law makers" consider to be Climate Change?
I didn't seek anyone out (how exactly would I do that?). I just got a PM from a climate scientist who basically wanted to say that it's not worth dismantling the points raised here because the only people who need to hear it are the ones who simply aren't interested and will only respond with abuse.
There are a lot of problems with that post.

Firstly the massive irony. Climate realists tend not to resort to abuse. The same cannot be said for believers/trolls.

In addition you need to say 'claimed climate scientists' since unlike others on PH climate threads (at least, one other person) they have not been called upon to provide evidence of their credentials. If the PM to you had contained such evidence you would have said so.

Also, I've been participating in PH climate threads for over 15 years, longer and more frequently than you, and I can remember two occasiions where somebody claiming to have a role in climate science research joined in, as well as a third case where the participant still joins in from time to time. This third person is not on the believer side but their precise views on aspects of the topic aren't known to me though I've read some of their publications.

One of the believer pair tried to test me with a couple of technical questions which I answered. They left that thread for their own reasons. The other simply pushed the same old activist dogma with no evidence for their claim beyond that. They flounced before too long. They were not subjected to abuse, certainly not from me and not from others as far as I can recall.

The idea that a super-informed person would decide not to do something as 'easy' as dismantle weak arguments is silly. Why not? I do it all the time with climate fairytales. Why would they come along and not provide evidence of that elusive causal signal - in the data not in gigo - from anthropogenic emissions? That too is silly. Why wouldn't they, if it existed? It doesn't exist which is why it hasn't been linked to in over 15 years by any scientist within or outside climate science work.

Sure, opinion and unsubstantiatied assertion have popped in from time to tome including from IPCC reports (90% this, then 95% that during the pause!) at which time I pointed out the footnote that acknowledges the 90% and 95% claims as nothing but conjecture and certainly not the statistical test they masquerade as.

Your post is inaccursate in various ways with commission and omission both involved, and unconvincing for the reasons set out above.



turbobloke

103,741 posts

259 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
TheFlyingBanana said:
Has anyone noticed how hot it is though?

Phew! It really is a scorcher! And those Portugeezers and Spaniards are frying.

Just sayin'
hehe



Spain and Portugal...Hot air from Africa. What's the record for Africa? About 51 deg C iirc.

Weather =/= Climate and there's no causality to humans in a temperaturen reading.

On the Spain situation, a few years back when we had a flat in the south near Jerez the locals were amused by the global warming idea as the 44 to 45 deg C they were getting in the summer wasn't as high as in previous decades.

Which raises another point, the idea that the hottest place in any country will always occur at a state-sanctioned weather station is ludicrous, clearly those stations have equipment certified as being up to the job but the probability that somewhere else was hotter at some time will be nearly 1. Then there's the ridiculously short timescale of our temperature records. Inevitably so but still far too short in terms of timescale.


durbster

10,223 posts

221 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
There are a lot of problems with that post.

Firstly the massive irony. Climate realists tend not to resort to abuse.
If you're referring to yourself and your faithful followers as "climate realists" then all I can say is: laugh

And if by extension you're saying they don't resort to abuse then all I can say is: laugh

turbobloke said:
Also, I've been participating in PH climate threads for over 15 years, longer and more frequently than you...
Oh no, that sounds like an appeal to authority which, according to your teachings, means I have to automatically reject everything you say. Sorry.

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
I'll post this up as representative of the level of discussion that takes place in the more activist areas of 'climate science'.

This can be posted here, since it is political, snide and countians no discussion of the points that Curry has been trying to highlight and whether they have any validity whatsoever.

Desmogblog does Curry...

https://www.desmogblog.com/judith-curry

turbobloke

103,741 posts

259 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
durbster said:
turbobloke said:
There are a lot of problems with that post.

Firstly the massive irony. Climate realists tend not to resort to abuse.
If you're referring to yourself and your faithful followers as "climate realists" then all I can say is: laugh

And if by extension you're saying they don't resort to abuse then all I can say is: laugh

turbobloke said:
Also, I've been participating in PH climate threads for over 15 years, longer and more frequently than you...
Oh no, that sounds like an appeal to authority which, according to your teachings, means I have to automatically reject everything you say. Sorry.
Quite right to apoligise.

The idea of mentioning time on PH as equating to authority is a risible stretch.

Your reasoning as shown in the above post doesn't hold up. Irony and hypocrisy are there, same old.

turbobloke

103,741 posts

259 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
Why Climate Alarmists Are Not Really Interested in Humans or the Environment

http://www.carlineconomics.com/archives/4526

Reminder Why Climate Politics Is All About Taxes and Levies Not The Environment


anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
Classic, just keep repeating the same tired old misleading graphs and photos and hope they eventually become fact.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 3rd August 2018
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
The idea that a super-informed person would decide not to do something as 'easy' as dismantle weak arguments is silly. Why not? I do it all the time with climate fairytales.
Sorry turbobloke but you’ve really lost it.

You’re on a car forum showboating to people that aren’t experts. Even then you frequently get shown up and try to change the subject and spam the thread with waffle.

If you could actually dismantle climate fairytales, you simply wouldn't be doing it on here.

Why on Earth would you? If you’re a scientist why would your be trying to change a scientific consensus on a car forum?
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