Northern Ireland
Discussion
Vasco said:
Oh dear, Wow!!
That's some fine mess. New people and new policies at the top needed I guess.
The problem is that the two traditional main parties are now effectively merged in all but name, and the official opposition is Sinn Fein. They’re promising an awful lot of they get a chance at power, but there are some concerns as to how they will pay for it all. Actually there are a lot of concerns on my part with themThat's some fine mess. New people and new policies at the top needed I guess.
At one point I believe SF were the only political party in the world with two conflicting manifestos, but they seem to have aligned more now under MaryLou. They no longer seem to be EU-sceptic, but it a yet to be seen how they will deal with the likes of corporation tax. There does seem to be an underlying message that the “rich” will pay for it all, it’s just that it’s not easy to see exactly where the cutoff for being rich is. Probably somewhere just over the middle-class threshold!
Leins said:
At one point I believe SF were the only political party in the world with two conflicting manifestos, but they seem to have aligned more now under MaryLou.
One half of the party wants to engage with the political process, while the other half prefers the good old days of murdering people?Leins said:
At one point I believe SF were the only political party in the world with two conflicting manifestos, but they seem to have aligned more now under MaryLou. They no longer seem to be EU-sceptic, but it a yet to be seen how they will deal with the likes of corporation tax. There does seem to be an underlying message that the “rich” will pay for it all, it’s just that it’s not easy to see exactly where the cutoff for being rich is. Probably somewhere just over the middle-class threshold!
The Labour solution was to define as "rich" anyone earning more than an MP's salary 
Roderick Spode said:
Leins said:
At one point I believe SF were the only political party in the world with two conflicting manifestos, but they seem to have aligned more now under MaryLou.
One half of the party wants to engage with the political process, while the other half prefers the good old days of murdering people?JagLover said:
The Labour solution was to define as "rich" anyone earning more than an MP's salary
When it comes to ROI that mightn’t be far from the truth actually 
Roderick Spode said:
Leins said:
At one point I believe SF were the only political party in the world with two conflicting manifestos, but they seem to have aligned more now under MaryLou.
One half of the party wants to engage with the political process, while the other half prefers the good old days of murdering people?SF is just the latest (some would say they're very late) Irish political party to eschew violence and go mainstream. A lot of them have their roots in the WoI/CW, founded and led by men of violence with an awful lot of blood on their hands. It's nothing new in Irish politics and SF should be congratulated, not castigated, for their evolution.
Meanwhile, the ones hankering for the good old days have split off and have found new political parties.
Leins said:
For housing, lack of supply in the market is a big factor, as building just stopped completely in 2009, and then took a long time after we came out of recession to get started again. There are a few other factors then, and an ineffectual government chasing their tails on it, implementing rent pressure zones which have just driven the private landlord out of the market, along with poorly thought out taxation rules. All in all terribly handled for years
You then add high taxation rates across the board and it’s a fairly expensive country to live in. 23% VAT, top rate tax is almost 50% with lowish bands, as mentioned cars cost a fortune here due to VRT and high VED (a new M4 Comp would cost €125k basic with €2400 VED per year)
Plus we’ve far too large a public sector and health service that’s poorly managed, so all that needs paying for as well
Seen on a facebook group recently someone rejoicing because their car had got over 20 (?) years old and their VRT had been reduced from from nearly 800 down to 200+, equivalent here is £230. You then add high taxation rates across the board and it’s a fairly expensive country to live in. 23% VAT, top rate tax is almost 50% with lowish bands, as mentioned cars cost a fortune here due to VRT and high VED (a new M4 Comp would cost €125k basic with €2400 VED per year)
Plus we’ve far too large a public sector and health service that’s poorly managed, so all that needs paying for as well
My car is £165 and over 500 in Ireland.
Sister in law and brother in law whilst out of work were getting paid more by the dole than what they were earning when working.
As always, if you are poor or rich it's a great system if you're in the middle you get screwed.
Vasco said:
As an Englishman, I'm suddenly more grateful for a whole host of things.....
It might just be me but the Irish in general have always seemed to be of two conflicting minds, on just about everything.
That’s just the fortunate ones, as most of us are way more conflicted than even that! It might just be me but the Irish in general have always seemed to be of two conflicting minds, on just about everything.
Leins said:
That’s just the fortunate ones, as most of us are way more conflicted than even that!
Leins, brother in law mentioned during lockdown that they were getting a decent furlough payment - 350E a week I think was the figure mentioned. He also mentioned it was a loan that had to be repaid when he went back to work. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else so assumed he was misinformed?
ooo000ooo said:
Leins, brother in law mentioned during lockdown that they were getting a decent furlough payment - 350E a week I think was the figure mentioned.
He also mentioned it was a loan that had to be repaid when he went back to work. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else so assumed he was misinformed?
I didn’t think that was the case. However, I don’t believe it was in any way means tested, so perhaps if Revenue found out it was for a higher amount than the employee’s usual salary then there might be an issue. I’ve not heard of anyone being taken to task over it thoughHe also mentioned it was a loan that had to be repaid when he went back to work. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else so assumed he was misinformed?
Leins said:
I don’t want a united Ireland, for the following unordered reasons, amongst others:
- Too much water under the bridge
- Too expensive to accomplish
- Strain on our already stretched resources
- Likely to cause more terrorist backlash
- Things are fine at the moment
- We have enough rubbish politicians down here as it is
No offence to all in NI, it’s a lovely place, I just don’t see the point in trying to (re)unite at this point. I think a better bet if the Union really is broken would be an independent state. Perhaps still being part of the Commonwealth and within the EU
Anyway, I think once those in NI have a good think about it I’m not sure they’ll want a UI either. We’re on a car site, so for example would those in the North be prepared to pay VRT and our rates of VED, for example
Sorry lads I’ve been out of this conversation and just catching up. Leins I respect your point and a few others you’ve made on the thread as you know but “no offence” is almost as bad as Jeffrey’s “with respect”, watch how many times he uses the phrase every time he gets a hard question.- Too much water under the bridge
- Too expensive to accomplish
- Strain on our already stretched resources
- Likely to cause more terrorist backlash
- Things are fine at the moment
- We have enough rubbish politicians down here as it is
No offence to all in NI, it’s a lovely place, I just don’t see the point in trying to (re)unite at this point. I think a better bet if the Union really is broken would be an independent state. Perhaps still being part of the Commonwealth and within the EU
Anyway, I think once those in NI have a good think about it I’m not sure they’ll want a UI either. We’re on a car site, so for example would those in the North be prepared to pay VRT and our rates of VED, for example
I can sympathise, or maybe empathise, with almost every point on your list apart from things are fine at the moment “down south”
. None of them are reasons for or against a UI other than saying there’s never a good time to make hard choices.You might not want us Nordie eejits mucking it up but I could suggest you’re already doing a good job without us
.All that palaver aside, on the NIP, Boris is going to deal with the EU with the US looking over his shoulder and he’ll do a deal. The best we can hope for is the three of them can find a climb down the DUP can accept.
slow_poke said:
Roderick Spode said:
Leins said:
At one point I believe SF were the only political party in the world with two conflicting manifestos, but they seem to have aligned more now under MaryLou.
One half of the party wants to engage with the political process, while the other half prefers the good old days of murdering people?SF is just the latest (some would say they're very late) Irish political party to eschew violence and go mainstream. A lot of them have their roots in the WoI/CW, founded and led by men of violence with an awful lot of blood on their hands. It's nothing new in Irish politics and SF should be congratulated, not castigated, for their evolution.
Meanwhile, the ones hankering for the good old days have split off and have found new political parties.
roger.mellie said:
Sorry lads I’ve been out of this conversation and just catching up. Leins I respect your point and a few others you’ve made on the thread as you know but “no offence” is almost as bad as Jeffrey’s “with respect”, watch how many times he uses the phrase every time he gets a hard question.
I can sympathise, or maybe empathise, with almost every point on your list apart from things are fine at the moment “down south”. None of them are reasons for or against a UI other than saying there’s never a good time to make hard choices.
You might not want us Nordie eejits mucking it up but I could suggest you’re already doing a good job without us.
All that palaver aside, on the NIP, Boris is going to deal with the EU with the US looking over his shoulder and he’ll do a deal. The best we can hope for is the three of them can find a climb down the DUP can accept.
Welcome back Rog but, with respect… I can sympathise, or maybe empathise, with almost every point on your list apart from things are fine at the moment “down south”
. None of them are reasons for or against a UI other than saying there’s never a good time to make hard choices.You might not want us Nordie eejits mucking it up but I could suggest you’re already doing a good job without us
.All that palaver aside, on the NIP, Boris is going to deal with the EU with the US looking over his shoulder and he’ll do a deal. The best we can hope for is the three of them can find a climb down the DUP can accept.
Leaving asides the cost aspects of unification for a moment, and if we look at history, I’m just not sure there’s ever been a dedicated period of autonomous rule over the whole island. It’s been a very long time since some lad turned up on a boat from Holland and all hell broke loose, and before that sure there were a load of families going around trying to lop the heads off of each other. This dream land to revert to, as sold by certain elements, has never existed. Why should we think it would work now?
As for the “things are fine” comment, I was referring more to the North. Now while that’s obviously not strictly true, the progress since the GFA has been game-changing. Would you really want to risk all that on a unification attempt? Brexit/Boris-related shenanigans left to the side for the moment, but that will all calm down in the medium term I believe
Throw in all the before-mentioned issues I then see, and I’m left with an “Is it all really worth it?” question in my own head, and you know the answer I’ve come to
I’m also then left wondering why anyone in NI would want to join us in this day and age, given the state of our government and when you’ve got all the benefits of both EU and UK “membership”. I will admit though that I experienced the Troubles from the comfort of my own sofa, watching UTV News, so can understand that the picture is potentially no way near as simple as I’ve made out here
Leins said:
roger.mellie said:
Sorry lads I’ve been out of this conversation and just catching up. Leins I respect your point and a few others you’ve made on the thread as you know but “no offence” is almost as bad as Jeffrey’s “with respect”, watch how many times he uses the phrase every time he gets a hard question.
I can sympathise, or maybe empathise, with almost every point on your list apart from things are fine at the moment “down south”. None of them are reasons for or against a UI other than saying there’s never a good time to make hard choices.
You might not want us Nordie eejits mucking it up but I could suggest you’re already doing a good job without us.
All that palaver aside, on the NIP, Boris is going to deal with the EU with the US looking over his shoulder and he’ll do a deal. The best we can hope for is the three of them can find a climb down the DUP can accept.
Welcome back Rog but, with respect… I can sympathise, or maybe empathise, with almost every point on your list apart from things are fine at the moment “down south”
. None of them are reasons for or against a UI other than saying there’s never a good time to make hard choices.You might not want us Nordie eejits mucking it up but I could suggest you’re already doing a good job without us
.All that palaver aside, on the NIP, Boris is going to deal with the EU with the US looking over his shoulder and he’ll do a deal. The best we can hope for is the three of them can find a climb down the DUP can accept.
Leaving asides the cost aspects of unification for a moment, and if we look at history, I’m just not sure there’s ever been a dedicated period of autonomous rule over the whole island. It’s been a very long time since some lad turned up on a boat from Holland and all hell broke loose, and before that sure there were a load of families going around trying to lop the heads off of each other. This dream land to revert to, as sold by certain elements, has never existed. Why should we think it would work now?
As for the “things are fine” comment, I was referring more to the North. Now while that’s obviously not strictly true, the progress since the GFA has been game-changing. Would you really want to risk all that on a unification attempt? Brexit/Boris-related shenanigans left to the side for the moment, but that will all calm down in the medium term I believe
Throw in all the before-mentioned issues I then see, and I’m left with an “Is it all really worth it?” question in my own head, and you know the answer I’ve come to
I’m also then left wondering why anyone in NI would want to join us in this day and age, given the state of our government and when you’ve got all the benefits of both EU and UK “membership”. I will admit though that I experienced the Troubles from the comfort of my own sofa, watching UTV News, so can understand that the picture is potentially no way near as simple as I’ve made out here
I totally agree that the Ireland some are pushing for has no precedent and is sometimes based on a complete fantasy. That's not an argument against it, but it is an argument for making your case by them better than has been done to date. It isn't going away though. SF topping the poll in the north and likely the same in the south soon (there's every chance they'll be a one term government given the hospital pass that's coming but not guaranteed) will mean arguments towards the status quo won't carry and it'll be a case of defending the current position. Easy if you're in the south, not so easy if you're in the north with the current UK administration. Everything the UK has done to date over Brexit has increased the gap between NI and the UK, a blind man could see that. But administrations don't last, I certainly agree on that, good job the UK alternative is more unionist (oops).
As to the why, there doesn't have to be a why but I agree a case needs made as in the North the vote is now down to the middle ground. NI doesn't have all the benefits of EU and UK membership. It has some of each. I do find it amusing that many of the most ardent united Irelanders I know would not have a single good thing to say about the Irish government and wonder if they realise what they're asking for. That's true. My leanings towards it are more to do with self determination and I think the north would have much more influence in a UI than a UK, that plus economically the border on the Island is not really defensible compared to the alternative. I don't really get into the histrionics and pre Brexit I was one of those that may have culturally cared but would have been happy if the question never got in the way. Post Brexit, I think it's a one-way street, it might take years but it's only going one way and as much as I think the DUP argument is false flag flying for party political reasons in the background they're right on that point and haven't worked out how to tell their voters. I don't really expect a Big Bang border poll any time soon, but UK, IE, and US I think are all of the same view that "Ulster" is going to be moved more towards Ireland and it would happen much more smoothly if the current UK government wasn't looking for a bit of operation red meat to appease headbangers on the back benches measuring Boris' neck (another reason why being a bigger part of one dysfunctional government would be better than being a small part of another one
).Leins said:
Or houses or rent. ROI has gotten pretty expensive of late, even out in the sticks
Average rent in Dublin is now €2300 per month
I’m backpedaling through the thread, but I’m sure you understand this is why FF/FG are potentially going to be ate alive by the shinners come the vote, I don’t believe SF have the answer but FF/FG is just a vote for more of the same, and there’s no argument against that. I think SF are totally wrong on their objections to private house building as there’s no way to achieve levels without it so they’ll fAverage rent in Dublin is now €2300 per month
k up too, just a different type of fk up. Massive levels of house building is required and dealing with nimby’s is required. I doubt any party has the balls to do it, and I don’t really care what it might do for current prices.Roderick Spode said:
iphonedyou said:
Apropos of nothing, I wish we were able to buy plants online again. That's my biggest day-to-day gripe of this whole mess.
Feels a bit third world when nobody will ship to you.
Indeed. Many adverts or online special offers I've seen have been prefaced with "Not available in Northern Ireland / Cannot ship to Northern Ireland..."Feels a bit third world when nobody will ship to you.
But still. Nothing needs changed apparently.
t like some that can’t decode whether NI is a special case or isn’t.If, and it’s a big “if” on availability, it’s due to brexit, the problem is brexit and not the NIP. I don’t want to get into a fight with a fellow citizen on here, but blame if you want to fire it about is the brexit the uk opted for and not the NIP.
Mortarboard said:
Roderick Spode said:
I'm not so sure. The imposition of referenda as part of our electoral system in the last decade have hardly been a resounding success.
Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
There has to be a political solution, but to me at least a border poll would be the worst possible solution.
Agreed.Scottish independence referendum - nationalists refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 8 years campaigning for another one.
Brexit referendum - Remainers refuse to accept the result, and have spent the last 6 years campaigning for another one.
Irish border poll - whatever the result, the 'losing' side will refuse to accept the result & campaign for another one. Add in the very real prospect of militant extremists on both sides using the winning/losing of such a poll to indulge in a spot of violence, and things could descend very badly very quickly.
There has to be a political solution, but to me at least a border poll would be the worst possible solution.
The current problem in NI is that the two extremes cannot both be satisfied. For many, the attitude is "well a United Ireland is inevitable at some point anyway, so lets crack on" - primarily triggered by the GFA including the "process" for that within it.
However, that doesn't mean that unionists/unionism will disappear.
A phrase I'm hearing more & more (and wholeheartedly agree with) is "There cannot be a united ireland until there is a united northern ireland". So the rise of the portion of the vote in NI for alliance (small "a") parties is very welcome. I believe that is the best future for NI - whether part of the UK or part of the ROI.
The irony is, it's relatively easy to be "irish" outside of the ROI and maintain an irish identity, but very difficult to be "unionist" outside of NI. The core identity of being unionist is being unioned with the rest of the kingdom. It's not like being a displaced "citizen of somewhere else" - with all the identity that that has. It's not like being an english person abroad, or a scottish person abroad, or a welsh person abroad.
M.
You’re in the US mortar and I’m sure you’ve had your fill of plastic paddies. Like most Irish I’ve second and third generation relatives that still call themselves Irish in the US. We’re a weird country.
But it does mean for good or I’ll that the US (both sides of the house) will put pressure on the uk to not flaunt the deal in the way they want. I don’t know how much influence the US has beyond tomorrow’s telegraph headline in Boris world but it might matter to some that know what they’re talking about.
My humble apologies Rog 
As regards squaring the circle of the two extremes, I think that for those of us that experienced the pre-GFA NI, the period between the GFA and brexit was a rekative oasis, and we've kinda ignored stuff like no functioning assembly, etc.
Boris says the NIP must be scrapped as that's a DUP condition for a functioning assembly, of course there's nothing to stop SF claiming an intact NIP is a condition of a functioning assembly...
I'd love to know the inner SF plan, whether it's a UI asap, and at any cost, or they intent to take the "ratchet" approach by slowly but surely decoupling NI from westminster.
I'd love to see an "independent" NI. I think that while it might be difficult to maintain a Unionist identity in a UI, there's certainly no issues with maintaining an Ulster identity in a UI.
M.
As regards squaring the circle of the two extremes, I think that for those of us that experienced the pre-GFA NI, the period between the GFA and brexit was a rekative oasis, and we've kinda ignored stuff like no functioning assembly, etc.
Boris says the NIP must be scrapped as that's a DUP condition for a functioning assembly, of course there's nothing to stop SF claiming an intact NIP is a condition of a functioning assembly...
I'd love to know the inner SF plan, whether it's a UI asap, and at any cost, or they intent to take the "ratchet" approach by slowly but surely decoupling NI from westminster.
I'd love to see an "independent" NI. I think that while it might be difficult to maintain a Unionist identity in a UI, there's certainly no issues with maintaining an Ulster identity in a UI.
M.
sugerbear said:
slow_poke said:
Roderick Spode said:
Leins said:
At one point I believe SF were the only political party in the world with two conflicting manifestos, but they seem to have aligned more now under MaryLou.
One half of the party wants to engage with the political process, while the other half prefers the good old days of murdering people?SF is just the latest (some would say they're very late) Irish political party to eschew violence and go mainstream. A lot of them have their roots in the WoI/CW, founded and led by men of violence with an awful lot of blood on their hands. It's nothing new in Irish politics and SF should be congratulated, not castigated, for their evolution.
Meanwhile, the ones hankering for the good old days have split off and have found new political parties.
In what way was that post one sided? It's a fair commentary on the evolution of Irish political parties (and politicians) in the last century.
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