Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Uppity said:

Nope. Just in favour of Scotland being in charge of its own destiny.

Not really going to engage with these people any more as all it does, in their eyes, is legitimise their ste.

[MintyScot]

Uppity said:

OK, let me rephrase the point:

At a very high level, the recreation of an independent Scotland will require a period of transition away from the UK, followed by a Scottish General Election to elect the new Government. I've no idea what the new political make-up of Scotland might be, but there will be parties vying for your vote with

- pro and anti-EU policies
- pro and anti nuclear weapons
- pro and anti corporation tax
- pro and anti infrastructure projects
- pro and anti international treaties..

...etc.

With an independent Scotland, Scotland decides. That's the point

You act as if Scotland is some kind of hive mind where we all think and want the same. We are as different to each other as any other "Country".

You should try not to define yourself by a word and some lines on a map.

What happens if you don't get the party you vote for in an independent Scotland? Are you going to claim that your town doesn't get to choose its destiny and you therefor want independence from Scotland? Maybe you should just got for independence for your own street or perhaps house? Better yet best pick a room in your house and declare independence because I bet not all of your family agree on everything either.

[technodup]

MintyScot said:

What happens if you don't get the party you vote for in an independent Scotland?

What would be really funny is if after independence a combination of the current SNP support splitting and the electoral system produces a Tory/other coalition.

How would the Tory hating nats explain that one away?

[hidetheelephants]

neelyp said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44532985

The announcement that unconventional gas extraction was banned in Scotland "was a mistake"

The conniving fkers even waited on the judgement to change the text on their website.
Some real quality politicians we're lumbered with.

That is presumably just for openers; I guess the next step for Ineos is to put in a planning application for drilling in the most innocuous place possible, far from any beauty spots or housing, wait for the refusal and appeal it all the way to the Court of Session.

[Uppity]

MintyScot said:

Uppity said:

OK, let me rephrase the point:

At a very high level, the recreation of an independent Scotland will require a period of transition away from the UK, followed by a Scottish General Election to elect the new Government. I've no idea what the new political make-up of Scotland might be, but there will be parties vying for your vote with

- pro and anti-EU policies
- pro and anti nuclear weapons
- pro and anti corporation tax
- pro and anti infrastructure projects
- pro and anti international treaties..

...etc.

With an independent Scotland, Scotland decides. That's the point

MintyScot said:

You act as if Scotland is some kind of hive mind where we all think and want the same. We are as different to each other as any other "Country".

Don't understand the hive mind reference - agreed we are all different and will vote according to our political views, whether that be Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Lib Dems etc (although the 'Scottish' part of the title would be unnecessary as they would no longer be branch offices)

MintyScot said:

What happens if you don't get the party you vote for in an independent Scotland?

Nothing. It's a democratic system within a viable democratic entity. What would you expect to happen? Losers would just have to campaign harder :-)

MintyScot said:

Are you going to claim that your town doesn't get to choose its destiny and you therefor want independence from Scotland? Maybe you should just got for independence for your own street or perhaps house? Better yet best pick a room in your house and declare independence because I bet not all of your family agree on everything either.

Err, none of these are viable political entities - would you think it likely that your street/house/town/bedroom could enter into international/regional/local discussions frameworks on trade/taxes/tariffs/environment management/social policy etc? All of which are essential for society to function...? Does it have the capacity to function as a political entity? No.

Bottom line is, you can have a voice or not. All the information you need to make a decision is out there. Your choice

[Uppity]

technodup said:

MintyScot said:

What happens if you don't get the party you vote for in an independent Scotland?

What would be really funny is if after independence a combination of the current SNP support splitting and the electoral system produces a Tory/other coalition.

How would the Tory hating nats explain that one away?

Which could happen. But it would happen because the Tories had policies that appealed to Scottish voters in an independent Scotland.

Party wins majority in democratic election - not really seeing a problem here. What am I missing?

[r11co]

Uppity said:

technodup said:

MintyScot said:

What happens if you don't get the party you vote for in an independent Scotland?

What would be really funny is if after independence a combination of the current SNP support splitting and the electoral system produces a Tory/other coalition.

How would the Tory hating nats explain that one away?

Which could happen. But it would happen because the Tories had policies that appealed to Scottish voters in an independent Scotland.

Party wins majority in democratic election - not really seeing a problem here. What am I missing?

Take a step back. What you are missing is that independence would have been achieved by deception (see 'Thatcher No More' earlier).

The point you are blinding yourself to is that the SNP and the independence movement are chameleon - they change their colours to suit the environment they are in and will make any specious claim to any group to win their support, which is why a proportion of independence supporters argue it a proxy for their aim to live in a socialist state.

The fracking court case is proof that Nicola Sturgeon will lie to gain support for the cause.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 20th June 06:27

[technodup]

Uppity said:

Which could happen. But it would happen because the Tories had policies that appealed to Scottish voters in an independent Scotland.

Party wins majority in democratic election - not really seeing a problem here. What am I missing?

Everything bad in SNP land is the fault of the Tories. So we hear claims that independence would bring "an end to Tory rule", "get the government you vote for (i.e. not Tory in Scotland)" and so on.

Which they cannot promise, because Tories in Scotland are solidly 20-25% of the vote. And if after independence the SNP vote shrinks because 'job done' and goes back to Green, Lib, Lab etc there's every chance the Tories could end up in some sort of power.

Yet again it's the SNP using dishonest claims they can't deliver on to appeal to their hard of thinking 'frrrreeedooomm' voter. Like you.

[Strocky]

technodup said:

as this transition to start before or after the UK transition from the EU?

See your moratorium on fracking? Let's have a moratorium on new laws. Just none, for five years. No campaigning, no proposals and nothing added to the ban list. And certainly no fking referendums. Just peace and quiet to go about our business.

Probably the most democratic thing that's been uttered from the Unionist side on here for many's a long day, which is telling

[Strocky]

r11co said:

Take a step back. What you are missing is that independence would have been achieved by deception (see 'Thatcher No More' earlier).

The point you are blinding yourself to is that the SNP and the independence movement are chameleon - they change their colours to suit the environment they are in and will make any specious claim to any group to win their support, which is why a proportion of independence supporters argue it a proxy for their aim to live in a socialist state.

The fracking court case is proof that Nicola Sturgeon will lie to gain support for the cause.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 20th June 06:27

A tad disingenuous to dismiss the motivations of supporters of self determination no matter the various facets that it entails when your own self confessed motivation is "anyone but the SNP"

Regarding fracking, yep it's spin if you discount the word "effective" not meaning "existing in fact, though not formally acknowledged as such"
The semantic is that fracking is effectively banned in Scotland as per the wishes of the majority polled

[malks222]

hidetheelephants said:

neelyp said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44532985

The announcement that unconventional gas extraction was banned in Scotland "was a mistake"

The conniving fkers even waited on the judgement to change the text on their website.
Some real quality politicians we're lumbered with.

That is presumably just for openers; I guess the next step for Ineos is to put in a planning application for drilling in the most innocuous place possible, far from any beauty spots or housing, wait for the refusal and appeal it all the way to the Court of Session.

I've been expecting this for a while, that would be SNP's dream for this situation:
- we're currently going through the process to stop fracking
- oh look westminster has over ruled us again
- indy 2 is on the cards- we cant even get our own devolved powers to protect our country- westminster bad!!!

But what people will be quick to forget, maybe dont even know, is during the last round of industrial action at Ineos, the SNP backed/ went lender of last resort on the loan to build the new 'ethane/ shale gas tank' project. This was also round about the time of Ineos buying the licenses for fracking across the central belt.

would Jim Ratcliffe ever consider just closing the Grangemouth site, defaulting on the loan and leaving it for the government to pick up the pieces of a decimated Grangemouth area and a £300mil loan...... all because they wont let him frack?!?!? I certainly wouldnt want to play poker with him!

[Strocky]

Some interesting polling recently on how the various components of the UK feel British vs Scottish/Irish/English/Welsh
More alarming for those of a unionist bent is 73% of Leavers would choose leaving the EU over keeping the UK together

Interesting times ahead

[Strocky]

malks222 said:

I've been expecting this for a while, that would be SNP's dream for this situation:
- we're currently going through the process to stop fracking
- oh look westminster has over ruled us again
- indy 2 is on the cards- we cant even get our own devolved powers to protect our country- westminster bad!!!

But what people will be quick to forget, maybe dont even know, is during the last round of industrial action at Ineos, the SNP backed/ went lender of last resort on the loan to build the new 'ethane/ shale gas tank' project. This was also round about the time of Ineos buying the licenses for fracking across the central belt.

would Jim Ratcliffe ever consider just closing the Grangemouth site, defaulting on the loan and leaving it for the government to pick up the pieces of a decimated Grangemouth area and a £300mil loan...... all because they wont let him frack?!?!? I certainly wouldnt want to play poker with him!

The UK Gov are the guarantors of the £230m Loan
The Scottish Gov ponied up £8m

https://www.ineos.com/sites/grangemouth/news/ineos...

https://www.ineos.com/inch-magazine/articles/issue...

Would have been nice to strike the first blow for a nationalised oil & gas framework, though

[hidetheelephants]

malks222 said:

hidetheelephants said:

neelyp said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44532985

The announcement that unconventional gas extraction was banned in Scotland "was a mistake"

The conniving fkers even waited on the judgement to change the text on their website.
Some real quality politicians we're lumbered with.

That is presumably just for openers; I guess the next step for Ineos is to put in a planning application for drilling in the most innocuous place possible, far from any beauty spots or housing, wait for the refusal and appeal it all the way to the Court of Session.

I've been expecting this for a while, that would be SNP's dream for this situation:
- we're currently going through the process to stop fracking
- oh look westminster has over ruled us again
- indy 2 is on the cards- we cant even get our own devolved powers to protect our country- westminster bad!!!

But what people will be quick to forget, maybe dont even know, is during the last round of industrial action at Ineos, the SNP backed/ went lender of last resort on the loan to build the new 'ethane/ shale gas tank' project. This was also round about the time of Ineos buying the licenses for fracking across the central belt.

would Jim Ratcliffe ever consider just closing the Grangemouth site, defaulting on the loan and leaving it for the government to pick up the pieces of a decimated Grangemouth area and a £300mil loan...... all because they wont let him frack?!?!? I certainly wouldnt want to play poker with him!

How will Westminster figure in this? If they proceed Ineos will be taking on the scottish government and nail the jelly that is fracking 'policy' to the wall, for good or ill. Unless they're particularly keen to promote the cause of the independence at any cost brigade the UK government will give it a good coat of ignorage.

[amusingduck]

Strocky said:

Some interesting polling recently on how the various components of the UK feel British vs Scottish/Irish/English/Welsh
More alarming for those of a unionist bent is 73% of Leavers would choose leaving the EU over keeping the UK together

Interesting times ahead

Source?

[malks222]

Strocky said:

The UK Gov are the guarantors of the £230m Loan
The Scottish Gov ponied up £8m

https://www.ineos.com/sites/grangemouth/news/ineos...

https://www.ineos.com/inch-magazine/articles/issue...

Would have been nice to strike the first blow for a nationalised oil & gas framework, though

I did not know it was the UK government that back the loan! apologies

[gofasterrosssco]

malks222 said:

Strocky said:

The UK Gov are the guarantors of the £230m Loan
The Scottish Gov ponied up £8m

https://www.ineos.com/sites/grangemouth/news/ineos...

https://www.ineos.com/inch-magazine/articles/issue...

Would have been nice to strike the first blow for a nationalised oil & gas framework, though

I did not know it was the UK government that back the loan! apologies

Yep. IIRC, the plant was due to potentially close until the UK gov stepped in.

I'm not sure why buying a huge industrial processing complex would have been a good idea.. It needed significant investment to stay viable, and would have required access to other commercial shale interests (while Ineos has) to move forward, assuming fracking in Scotland is subject to planning restrictions.

[r11co]

Strocky said:

A tad disingenuous to dismiss the motivations of supporters of self determination no matter the various facets that it entails when your own self confessed motivation is "anyone but the SNP"

From a political standpoint absolutely as I do not consider the SNP a credible party of government, plus I said that to you in response to your attempts to pigeonhole me politically and therefor dismiss my arguments. 'Anyone but the SNP' makes sense as a political standpoint for anyone who resists the idea of Scottish independence when the SNP are the only party who exist to achieve independence.

Voting for the SNP because you want a socialist state when there are other parties who have this as their reason to exist yet you have been dissuaded from voting for that party because an SNP activist came to your door and lied about the credentials of that party's candidate (branding them a 'Red Tory' for example) and telling them that an independent Scotland is the only way to achieve a socialist state is both disingenuous on the part of the SNP activist and idiocy on the part of the voter, yet that exact scenario has been played out thousands of times.

Strocky said:

Regarding fracking, yep it's spin if you discount the word "effective" not meaning "existing in fact, though not formally acknowledged as such"
The semantic is that fracking is effectively banned in Scotland as per the wishes of the majority polled.

...who have read the headline 'fracking isn't banned says ScotGov' and take that statement at face value. The 'effective' bit is now up for challenge and may be ineffective before too long, but keep repeating the SNat spin, because the one thing the SNP are doing right now is tying themselves up in knots with it.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 20th June 10:31

[Strocky]

amusingduck said:

Source?

Lord Ashcroft Poll, although tbf it's 73% Tories Leavers or 63% overall

https://twitter.com/davies_will/status/10089988207...

[Strocky]

malks222 said:

I did not know it was the UK government that back the loan! apologies

Nothing to apologise about, it's a forum, not a court of law