Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Helicopter123 said:
Why does a supposedly left of centre party support so many benefits primarily for the middle classes? Shouldn’t they pay with funds saved aimed at alleviating poverty? Middle classes pay nothing to execute their children while food banks multiply.
Free execution for children? Scotland must be further behind the rest of the UK than I imagined...
.malks222 said:
the problem with the SNP faithful is- they wont even care, McColl saved all these poor working class peoples jobs. If it costs the SNP a wee bit more to help support these jobs, they wont care, they have helped the poor/ hard done by.......... all those rich tory voters can afford additional tax to cover the cost
What most don't see is that the (very) late new ferries, and aging Calmac fleet (not their fault - they can only run the ships they're given - funding/permission for new ships has to come from Holyrood) is hurting investment, jobs and expansion on the islands, which in the long run will be more damaging than a small shipyard on the Clyde closing.£92 million, and now an additional £45 million for two ships which aren't anywhere near completion - questions need to be asked how they won the contract over yards in Poland and Germany with proven track records. All the while, the populations of the islands are suffering while Ferguson's/the SNP try to save face.
Rollin said:
B210bandit said:
Rollin said:
B210bandit said:
No inconsistency. Self-determination for both England and Scotland is not incompatible.
Self determination for areas that vote against independence.Should areas of Scotland who vote against independence be treated differently?
Or are you not such a fan of self determination as you make out?
Taffer said:
What most don't see is that the (very) late new ferries, and aging Calmac fleet (not their fault - they can only run the ships they're given - funding/permission for new ships has to come from Holyrood) is hurting investment, jobs and expansion on the islands, which in the long run will be more damaging than a small shipyard on the Clyde closing.
£92 million, and now an additional £45 million for two ships which aren't anywhere near completion - questions need to be asked how they won the contract over yards in Poland and Germany with proven track records. All the while, the populations of the islands are suffering while Ferguson's/the SNP try to save face.
Yet I was hearing from some SNP apologist warmer being interviewed on Radio Scotland yesterday morning that the depopulation and decline of the islands was all down to Brexit.£92 million, and now an additional £45 million for two ships which aren't anywhere near completion - questions need to be asked how they won the contract over yards in Poland and Germany with proven track records. All the while, the populations of the islands are suffering while Ferguson's/the SNP try to save face.
The SNP's approach to Scottish governance is like Munchhausen-by-proxy on a national scale.
r11co said:
Taffer said:
What most don't see is that the (very) late new ferries, and aging Calmac fleet (not their fault - they can only run the ships they're given - funding/permission for new ships has to come from Holyrood) is hurting investment, jobs and expansion on the islands, which in the long run will be more damaging than a small shipyard on the Clyde closing.
£92 million, and now an additional £45 million for two ships which aren't anywhere near completion - questions need to be asked how they won the contract over yards in Poland and Germany with proven track records. All the while, the populations of the islands are suffering while Ferguson's/the SNP try to save face.
Yet I was hearing from some SNP apologist warmer being interviewed on Radio Scotland yesterday morning that the depopulation and decline of the islands was all down to Brexit.£92 million, and now an additional £45 million for two ships which aren't anywhere near completion - questions need to be asked how they won the contract over yards in Poland and Germany with proven track records. All the while, the populations of the islands are suffering while Ferguson's/the SNP try to save face.
The SNP's approach to Scottish governance is like Munchhausen-by-proxy on a national scale.
These white elephant ferries perplex me, why there is so much coyness about the reasons for the delay; Fergusons have built ferries before and not f
ked it up noticeably, has the LNG installation caused problems? Given we're paying for the things we ought to know what the problem is, particularly as the government clearly have a problem with transparency on this issue.hidetheelephants said:
These white elephant ferries perplex me, why there is so much coyness about the reasons for the delay; Fergusons have built ferries before and not fked it up noticeably, has the LNG installation caused problems? Given we're paying for the things we ought to know what the problem is, particularly as the government clearly have a problem with transparency on this issue.
Did the diesel/battery ferries built there not have similar problems? Looking at the descriptions on Wikipedia, both the diesel/LNGs and diesel/battery boats appear to be world firsts - either Fergusons are true innovators or the government are pushing for things that no-one else is daft enough/brave enough to try to build yet. Bleeding-edge technology and on-time/on-budget delivery don't appear to be great bedfellows generally. Maybe the govt should have stuck to ordering straight diesel ferries as per pretty much every other operator worldwide.ked it up noticeably, has the LNG installation caused problems? Given we're paying for the things we ought to know what the problem is, particularly as the government clearly have a problem with transparency on this issue.alangla said:
Did the diesel/battery ferries built there not have similar problems? Looking at the descriptions on Wikipedia, both the diesel/LNGs and diesel/battery boats appear to be world firsts - either Fergusons are true innovators or the government are pushing for things that no-one else is daft enough/brave enough to try to build yet. Bleeding-edge technology and on-time/on-budget delivery don't appear to be great bedfellows generally. Maybe the govt should have stuck to ordering straight diesel ferries as per pretty much every other operator worldwide.
But the SNP want everyone in the world (and especially the Green party that prop them up) to know Scotland is the greenest place on earth and so different from those horrid English people, we will have none of that fracking here. Just ignore the fact they were planning to rely on the black stuff from the North Sea. I suspect a lot is simply down to Ministers changing their minds on what they want and not considering how much work is involved even with a small design change.Alpacaman said:
alangla said:
Did the diesel/battery ferries built there not have similar problems? Looking at the descriptions on Wikipedia, both the diesel/LNGs and diesel/battery boats appear to be world firsts - either Fergusons are true innovators or the government are pushing for things that no-one else is daft enough/brave enough to try to build yet. Bleeding-edge technology and on-time/on-budget delivery don't appear to be great bedfellows generally. Maybe the govt should have stuck to ordering straight diesel ferries as per pretty much every other operator worldwide.
But the SNP want everyone in the world (and especially the Green party that prop them up) to know Scotland is the greenest place on earth and so different from those horrid English people, we will have none of that fracking here. Just ignore the fact they were planning to rely on the black stuff from the North Sea. I suspect a lot is simply down to Ministers changing their minds on what they want and not considering how much work is involved even with a small design change.alangla said:
Did the diesel/battery ferries built there not have similar problems? Looking at the descriptions on Wikipedia, both the diesel/LNGs and diesel/battery boats appear to be world firsts - either Fergusons are true innovators or the government are pushing for things that no-one else is daft enough/brave enough to try to build yet. Bleeding-edge technology and on-time/on-budget delivery don't appear to be great bedfellows generally. Maybe the govt should have stuck to ordering straight diesel ferries as per pretty much every other operator worldwide.
They're the first LNG passenger vessels in the UK, but nowhere near the first in the world - it's not new technology. The hybrid boats were the first passenger hybrids in service in the world, but the Norwegians had hybrid oil support vessels running before, and now they're leading the way in full-electric ferries. The new hydrogen fuel cell ferry they're planning to build for Orkney is, again, the first passenger vessel to use it, but the Norwegians have already trialled these systems in offshore vessels. Other companies are carrying out the cutting edge research in fuel cells, batteries, etc. Fergusons are just providing a steel box for it to go in (oversimplification, but it's wrong to imply they're the ones doing the research into these new power train solutions).The designs are far from cutting edge - the LNG tanks, gasification units, engines, etc are all externally supplied equipment - there have been difficulties for Fergusons even doing basic fabrication (the bulbous bow looked like a 50p piece in shape, and will have to be replaced), so integration of all the equipment will no doubt be causing problems.
The difficulty seems to have come from giving a contract for a fairly large, fairly advanced vessel to a yard that was on its knees and had no recent experience of building large ships. They'd have been better building more small ferries and carrying out refit work, and increasing the workforce/expertise over time, but the desire for headline-grabbing 'Scotland First' projects may end up costing them dearly.
Kccv23highliftcam said:
" the desire for headline-grabbing 'Scotland First' projects may end up costing them dearly. "
who dearly?
Potentially Fergusons, as these setbacks aren't going to encourage foreign/private firms to order ships there (their goal is to be competitive on the world stage). The SNP? I doubt their ardent followers will see it as a failure, even with the questions surrounding how the contracts were awarded or where all the money's going - someone else will be found to take the blame.who dearly?
I doubt anyone wants to see the venture fail, but there needs to be some accountability for the delays and cost overruns. Meanwhile, island communities are left to cope with a limited number of aging vessels, throttling expansion of tourism and other businesses, and are still waiting for new ships which, if built in Germany or Poland, would most probably be in service by now.
simoid said:
Cool story:
I was out in Uist and Benbecula, I think in 2001/2, and the ship that took me there was the MV Hebrides. I went back this year and it was the same boat. I was a bit nostalgic/proud when I found out it was still running, but she’s looking a bit tired now!
End of cool story.
That's one of the newer ones. I was out in Uist and Benbecula, I think in 2001/2, and the ship that took me there was the MV Hebrides. I went back this year and it was the same boat. I was a bit nostalgic/proud when I found out it was still running, but she’s looking a bit tired now!
End of cool story.
https://www.calmac.co.uk/fleet/mv-isle-of-arran - 1984
https://www.calmac.co.uk/fleet/mv-hebridean-isles - 1986
https://www.calmac.co.uk/fleet/mv-isle-of-cumbrae - 1976!
alangla said:
hidetheelephants said:
These white elephant ferries perplex me, why there is so much coyness about the reasons for the delay; Fergusons have built ferries before and not fked it up noticeably, has the LNG installation caused problems? Given we're paying for the things we ought to know what the problem is, particularly as the government clearly have a problem with transparency on this issue.
Did the diesel/battery ferries built there not have similar problems? Looking at the descriptions on Wikipedia, both the diesel/LNGs and diesel/battery boats appear to be world firsts - either Fergusons are true innovators or the government are pushing for things that no-one else is daft enough/brave enough to try to build yet. Bleeding-edge technology and on-time/on-budget delivery don't appear to be great bedfellows generally. Maybe the govt should have stuck to ordering straight diesel ferries as per pretty much every other operator worldwide.ked it up noticeably, has the LNG installation caused problems? Given we're paying for the things we ought to know what the problem is, particularly as the government clearly have a problem with transparency on this issue.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff