Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[Leithen]

s2kjock said:

Edinburger said:

So why do private schools qualify for charitable status?

From a technical perspective they pass "the charity test" in Scotland in so far as they (a) carry out activities in line with one of the approved charitable purposes (education in this instance), and (b) they provide public benefit.

Test (b) is the tricky one obviously.

Ways they meet (b) are principally by providing means tested bursaries and providing use of their facilities to community and other groups.

The Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR) has reviewed every single independent school in Scotland and indeed prioritised them given their risk under this test, and subject to a few who were directed to tweak a few things, they all "passed" - this was a while back now.

Unless the SG decide to amend the 2005 Charities Act definitions or use influence in some other way to persuade OSCR to interpret the law differently, they won't "lose charitable status".

The business rates issue was quite a specific targeted approach to a specific relief - interestingly IIRC the report leading to it also recommended that the relief be removed from local government "arms length organisations" (ALEOS) that they had hived off various sports and other activities into to benefit from tax reliefs under charitable status.

The loss of rates relief is likely just reduce bursary provision to cover the cost ....... which may lead in turn to more problems passing test (b).

These schools are suffering from big hikes in pension contributions just now (most are members of public sector related teaching schemes) so any impact on the bottom line is unhelpful.

Although many parents are sufficiently well off that they can weather large increases in fees, there are a significant amount for whom affordability is very marginal - if these pupils are lost then it impacts on the financial viability of the sector ie there are simply not enough megabucks parents around to support a reduced sector.

The big killer for the sector with loss of charitable status is potential for capital gains tax to be charged on their assets as they de-register as charities.

Having to charge VAT on fees, as muted by Labour, is another frightener for the sector.

Perfectly summed up.

Since 2008, the sector has been under increasing pressure as the pool of parents who can afford private education has shrunk. It’s particularly difficult for the younger end of the market (age of children).

[csd19]

Edinburger said:

I've never ever understood why private schools (and some other bodies) qualify for charitable status.

I believe Edinburgh has the highest proportion of private school pupils in Scotland

Couple of snips there but to assist with understanding the first one maybe you should do a bit of research into the history of Edinburgh's private schools.

Take a look at George Heriot's School, and I'm only mentioning this one as I am familiar with it. This was first opened as a charitable school (hospital as it was first known) from the assets left by George Heriot (goldsmith to King James VI and associated royalty) upon his death. The money was left to the City of Edinburgh to provide for the education of the city's orphans and although over the years since it was first opened in the 1600s it began to charge fees, it never forgot the original message of helping orphaned children.

As a former pupil (secondary only) I'm slightly biased but I remember some of my classmates being Foundationers - they had received a full education from Primary entry right through secondary. There were also a few kids on bursaries who hadn't been there from primary 1 but had started as 1st Years - this is the sort of invaluable support and charitable work the school has always strived to provide. These children were extremely bright but their family situation unfortunately couldn't afford the fees without some degree of assistance.

As for your point of

"If you're so close to the bone that you're saying this increase will result in your child being moved to a state school then I think that's down to deeply questionable financial planning and priorities on your part"

please try not to be so ignorant in future, not every set of parents with children in private education are both on 6 fig salaries. You just don't realise that people send their children to private education because they are the priority and you have no idea of the sacrifices people do make.

One notable point of attending GHS was the wide mix of backgrounds - it wasn't all snobby kids being dropped off in Rolls-Royces in the morning. Yes, the father of one of my classmates was a multi-millionaire, but his son was so down to earth he didn't have a need to mention it or play on it. The kids came from all sorts of families - bank tellers, mechanics, machinists, doctors, civil servants, lawyers, admin personnel... the only commonality was the desire to give their children a decent education.

I don't have, and won't have, any children, but I do make regular contributions to the school in the hope that they will make a difference to a child who is like my classmates were. The old motto of "impendo" (I distribute cheerfully, or chearfullie to spell it as per the historic school crest) obviously rings true with me.

[B'stard Child]

csd19 said:

I don't have, and won't have, any children, but I do make regular contributions to the school in the hope that they will make a difference to a child who is like my classmates were. The old motto of "impendo" (I distribute cheerfully, or chearfullie to spell it as per the historic school crest) obviously rings true with me.

Well done and I hope those that benefit will also appreciate it

[jshell]

csd19 said:

please try not to be so ignorant in future, not every set of parents with children in private education are both on 6 fig salaries. You just don't realise that people send their children to private education because they are the priority and you have no idea of the sacrifices people do make.

Many, many parents do exactly this. No flash car, endless gadgets and foreign holidays. The kids are the absolute priority!

[DuncsGTi]

The schooling issue affects more than just the "rich tory bds" the SNP are trying to aim it at.

My job is mobile, moving on average every 3 years and as such my employer offer a very generous schooling allowance to ensure my son's education isn't affected by him having to follow me around.

Adding 20% to the contribution I pay towards the fees would make them verging upon unaffordable on my distinctly average salary. We as a family already sacrifice things like holidays to afford his education.

State boarding schools would be a viable alternative if they were more widespread and better resourced but the fact is they are not.


Edit to add- this change wouldn't directly affect me, I cut and ran in 2014 as buying my first house in Scotland in the run up to the referendum seemed like to much of a risk so I'm currently loving life on the Dorset coast. I fully intend on returning to Scotland in the future as long as the SNP dont ruin my homeland in the interim.

Edited by DuncsGTi on Saturday 7th December 12:21

[Evercross]

Latest opinion poll puts support for Scottish independence down.

The last poll that Edinburger trumpeted so loudly in here that showed a narrowing of the gap was taken in August - just after Boris Johnson took over, and was clearly a blip based on 'nasty posh boy Tory' bad publicity.

Truth is that 6 years of continuous campaigning by the SNP has moved the support for independence not one iota when you average things out.

[Pastor Of Muppets]

Evercross said:

Latest opinion poll puts support for Scottish independence down.

The last poll that Edinburger trumpeted so loudly in here that showed a narrowing of the gap was taken in August - just after Boris Johnson took over, and was clearly a blip based on 'nasty posh boy Tory' bad publicity.

Truth is that 6 years of continuous campaigning by the SNP has moved the support for independence not one iota when you average things out.

Only an opinion poll of course, but it correlates with what I am hearing speaking to people locally. Even heard yes voters
saying how pissed off they are with Sturgeon. Can only hope it translates to loss of seats, time will tell.

[irc]

B'stard Child said:

csd19 said:

I don't have, and won't have, any children, but I do make regular contributions to the school in the hope that they will make a difference to a child who is like my classmates were. The old motto of "impendo" (I distribute cheerfully, or chearfullie to spell it as per the historic school crest) obviously rings true with me.

Well done and I hope those that benefit will also appreciate it

Yes, well done. Exactly how society should work. Things done for the public good. My niece attended Cheltenham School for girls on a bursary and is now at Oxford.
If private schools were abolished it would just mean the extra cost falling on the taxpayer.
The wealthy would still ensure their kids got the best education by buying homes in the right catchment areas and private tuition.
No net benefits to the public.

[Big Robbo]

DuncsGTi said:

Edit to add- this change wouldn't directly affect me, I cut and ran in 2014 as buying my first house in Scotland in the run up to the referendum seemed like to much of a risk so I'm currently loving life on the Dorset coast. I fully intend on returning to Scotland in the future as long as the SNP dont ruin my homeland in the interim.

Edited by DuncsGTi on Saturday 7th December 12:21

You might as well take your coat off then, the SNP seem to be taking "scorched earth" as their inspiration

[csd19]

irc said:

B'stard Child said:

csd19 said:

I don't have, and won't have, any children, but I do make regular contributions to the school in the hope that they will make a difference to a child who is like my classmates were. The old motto of "impendo" (I distribute cheerfully, or chearfullie to spell it as per the historic school crest) obviously rings true with me.

Well done and I hope those that benefit will also appreciate it

Yes, well done. Exactly how society should work. Things done for the public good. My niece attended Cheltenham School for girls on a bursary and is now at Oxford.
If private schools were abolished it would just mean the extra cost falling on the taxpayer.
The wealthy would still ensure their kids got the best education by buying homes in the right catchment areas and private tuition.
No net benefits to the public.

Thanks guys - my post wasn't meant to be taken in an internetz point scoring way (I'm not Nickgnome) and I took a long time after composing it to press Submit, I don't tend to talk about myself much at all. I'm glad it came across in the way I intended though.

Edited by csd19 on Saturday 7th December 17:56

[anonymous-user]

Evercross said:

Latest opinion poll puts support for Scottish independence down.

The last poll that Edinburger trumpeted so loudly in here that showed a narrowing of the gap was taken in August - just after Boris Johnson took over, and was clearly a blip based on 'nasty posh boy Tory' bad publicity.

Truth is that 6 years of continuous campaigning by the SNP has moved the support for independence not one iota when you average things out.

Sturgeon is doing her best for the No movement. Her brazen attitude, obnoxious demeanor and nursery school logic means everyone is getting pissed off.

[Cantaloupe]

I don't think dyed-in-the-wool NO voting Scots, or even the undecided, will suddenly throws of their raiment and embrace separation because of a new charismatic leader spouting the same old dodgy tosh, we're not French or American.

Scots are fairly clued up, rhetoric is one thing but if the sums don't work a bloke in a shiny suit is not going to sway the fishermen of Peterhead or the SWI ladies of Dunblane

[B'stard Child]

csd19 said:

Thanks guys - my post wasn't meant to be taken in an internetz point scoring way (I'm not Nickgnome) and I took a long time after composing it to press Submit, I don't tend to talk about myself much at all. I'm glad it came across in the way I intended though.

It didn't come across as anything like a Nickgnome post - just came across as a genuine - "I give a bit back cos I can" IMO

[rossub]

Cantaloupe said:

I don't think dyed-in-the-wool NO voting Scots, or even the undecided, will suddenly throws of their raiment and embrace separation because of a new charismatic leader spouting the same old dodgy tosh, we're not French or American.

Scots are fairly clued up, rhetoric is one thing but if the sums don't work a bloke in a shiny suit is not going to sway the fishermen of Peterhead or the SWI ladies of Dunblane

+1

I’m not voting Conservative because of Boris Johnson

If Scotland were as rich as Norway, I might vote for independence. But we aren’t and never will be and I have no desire to become like Greece or Portugal ..... without the decent weather.

[simoid]

B'stard Child said:

csd19 said:

Thanks guys - my post wasn't meant to be taken in an internetz point scoring way (I'm not Nickgnome) and I took a long time after composing it to press Submit, I don't tend to talk about myself much at all. I'm glad it came across in the way I intended though.

It didn't come across as anything like a Nickgnome post - just came across as a genuine - "I give a bit back cos I can" IMO

It’s about community. Without putting words directly into anyone’s mouth, if something is worthwhile then people will assist. That’s why a lot of people will moan about a higher Scottish tax rate even though they “could afford to” - it doesn’t look worthwhile.

[NRS]

Mrr T said:

Can I suggest you read the publication. Its an estimate. It cannot be exact because the figures do not exist. It's better on expenditure. But even then you have expenses incurred in the RUK which will cover Scotland and vise versus. The split on many taxes is a compete estimate. Taxes such as VAT, corporation tax, and duties are reported at a UK level with no split between RUK and Scotland. GERS splits these using methods published in the report but these are estimates as the report makes clear. The report even includes estimates for potential error. My spelling may be poor but you do not seem to understand the word EXACT.

What is the uncertainty range, and if you take the most positive side for Scotland does it look any better?

[simoid]

DuncsGTi said:

Adding 20% to the contribution I pay towards the fees would make them verging upon unaffordable on my distinctly average salary.

Any estimates of how much it would add to fees? Talking of Edinburgh schools, they’re gonna take a right hit when it’s £500 per car park space too!

[Evercross]

NRS said:

What is the uncertainty range, and if you take the most positive side for Scotland does it look any better?

Even factoring in the best case it doesn't turn a deficit into 'Scotland contributes more than it takes'. Far from it, but Nats discredit the figures totally because this is the lie they tell and want believed.

As for the actual income tax take - HMRC audit, which is unequivocal as it is based on only one set of figures ie. those paying income tax in Scotland, stated that Scotland brought in less in income tax thanks to Derek MacKay's decision not to raise thresholds in line with rUK than if he'd kept Scottish rates in line. The figures don't give any reasons why this happened, but when MacKay was given a lesson on the Laffer Curve at a Holyrood Finance Committee meeting he said he'd never heard of it.....

Edited by Evercross on Sunday 8th December 09:27

[Edinburger]

Mrs Sturgeon articulating her points and policies well on The Andrew Marr Show right now. 👍

[technodup]

Edinburger said:

Mrs Sturgeon articulating her points and policies well on The Andrew Marr Show right now. ??

And? It's an utterly futile exercise.

Nobody in rUK can vote for the SNP. Everyone in Scotland knows what she'll be saying, without watching. You're either for or against. She's isn't changing anyone's mind. So what's the point of even being on?

Profile. That's her raison detre, not independence.