Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Mrr T said:
psi310398 said:
Mrr T said:
Sorry but on a practical level Scotland cannot use sterling. The Scottish government needs to collect taxes, pay for services, raise and redeem bonds. To do that it needs access to a bank account. If the UK allowed the the Scottish government to have an account at the BOE the UK would be exposed and no commercial bank would have the risk appitite. The US Dollar maybe widely accepted for payments but governments need their own currency and central bank.
Actually, there are countries without central banks. Admittedly not many and almost all with economies the size Scotland's is likely to be shortly after independence
.Its interesting if you look at the countries which use the USD, such as Equator, they do have a currency and a CB but do not issue currency, and the currency is directly linked to the USD. This allows the local CB to bank the government rather than have to use the Fed.
said:
Why on earth do the SNP need to demonstrate to the Scottish electorate that independence is viable? ...
it's a good idea for the SNP to do so but the UK government are in no position to demand new criteria be met before granting indyref2, criteria that was not required for indyref1.
Cantaloupe said:
said:
Why on earth do the SNP need to demonstrate to the Scottish electorate that independence is viable? ...
it's a good idea for the SNP to do so but the UK government are in no position to demand new criteria be met before granting indyref2, criteria that was not required for indyref1.
In simple terms, why should the rest of the country be forced to pick up the bill for something in which they have no say?
To be honest I would think that it would be unlikely to end well for any government that didn't resolve that.
(And note that I am only talking about the immediate and direct costs of separation, not any ongoing forecast issues or changes arising from it)
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 17th January 18:41
Cantaloupe said:
it's a good idea for the SNP to (demonstrate to the Scottish electorate that independence is viable), but the UK government are in no position to demand new criteria be met before granting indyref2, criteria that was not required for indyref1.
They absolutely are. Firstly, it is a different Prime Minister and an entirely different government. Sturgeon herself has said on many occasions that no government can bind future governments, plus I'd like to see her sticking up for David Cameron.Secondly, can lessons not be learned? Should governments make the same mistakes just because?
Thirdly - electoral rules have changed which is why the question on an indyref ballot must now be different (despite Nippy's attempts to dodge the rules, thankfully now pointed out to her as legally dodgy).
Evercross said:
They absolutely are. Firstly, it is a different Prime Minister and an entirely different government. Sturgeon herself has said on many occasions that no government can bind future governments, plus I'd like to see her sticking up for David Cameron.
Secondly, can lessons not be learned? Should governments make the same mistakes just because?
Thirdly - electoral rules have changed which is why the question on an indyref ballot must now be different (despite Nippy's attempts to dodge the rules, thankfully now pointed out to her as legally dodgy).
And Fourth.. and most important of all... The Scottish people are not going to hand Scotland over to the SNP, thoseSecondly, can lessons not be learned? Should governments make the same mistakes just because?
Thirdly - electoral rules have changed which is why the question on an indyref ballot must now be different (despite Nippy's attempts to dodge the rules, thankfully now pointed out to her as legally dodgy).
who believe that this is going to happen soon are wearing very tight thick blinkers, even Sturgeon herself knows
that there is no appetite for another referendum amongst the majority of Scots. Remember that nearly two thirds
of the voting public did not vote for the SNP, and the polls have consistently shown that we dont want another referendum.
Sturgeon is leading her followers on, she knows full well that another vote at the present time would be the biggest
disaster for her dream of taking control. Nicola Sturgeon will never be at the helm of an independent Scotland,
someone may well be in the future, but it most certainly wont be her, not a chance in hell, her days as first minister
are getting short, she needs to get on and do something constructive for our country instead of her utter desperation
to split it apart.
Pastor Of Muppets said:
And Fourth.. and most important of all... The Scottish people are not going to hand Scotland over to the SNP, those
who believe that this is going to happen soon are wearing very tight thick blinkers, even Sturgeon herself knows
that there is no appetite for another referendum amongst the majority of Scots. Remember that nearly two thirds
of the voting public did not vote for the SNP, and the polls have consistently shown that we dont want another referendum.
If Boris wanted to be imaginative [ as if ] and if electoral laws allowed, he could offer a second ref for 2020, with a re-worded question,who believe that this is going to happen soon are wearing very tight thick blinkers, even Sturgeon herself knows
that there is no appetite for another referendum amongst the majority of Scots. Remember that nearly two thirds
of the voting public did not vote for the SNP, and the polls have consistently shown that we dont want another referendum.
a Devo-Max option, only 18 and overs to vote, and include all Scots born in Scotland who live in other areas of the
UK, and all people domiciled in Scotland.
I wonder if she'd take it on ? A second defeat would kill it for many decades.
StescoG66 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Seems like they want referendum after referendum until (and if) they get the result they are looking for, Got a distinct whiff of Deja Vu there!
Or perhaps deja-poo.We’ve heard this s
t before.........:roll eyes:
One of the problems is that the (minority) who want another go, are making a lot of noise about it, and possibly convincing
some that it's what most of Scotland want, and that is certainly not the case, nowhere even near it.
The vast majority of Scottish folks are just not being overly vocal about it, the oft used phrase 'the people of Scotland are
not being listened to' actually applies more to those that dont want to destroy our United Kingdom than those that do, and
it's Sturgeon that's not doing the listening, she is the one that only believes in democracy if it suits her specific agenda and
all other types of democracy can FRO, She has openly and blatantly shown that, virtually on a daily basis since September
19th, 2014, and garnering more division and xenophobia from that day on. She is doing Scotland's image a lot of harm.
Sturgeon is the one that needs to FRO, instead she continually tells 55.3% of Scots that they can FRO, She has a brass
neck telling us that Scotland is not being listened to.
Edited by Pastor Of Muppets on Saturday 18th January 08:38
Pastor Of Muppets said:
StescoG66 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Seems like they want referendum after referendum until (and if) they get the result they are looking for, Got a distinct whiff of Deja Vu there!
Or perhaps deja-poo.We’ve heard this s
t before.........:roll eyes:
One of the problems is that the (minority) who want another go, are making a lot of noise about it, and possibly convincing
some that it's what most of Scotland want, and that is certainly not the case, nowhere even near it.
The vast majority of Scottish folks are just not being overly vocal about it, the oft used phrase 'the people of Scotland are
not being listened to' actually applies more to those that dont want to destroy our United Kingdom than those that do, and
it's Sturgeon that's not doing the listening, she is the one that only believes in democracy if it suits her specific agenda and
all other types of democracy can FRO, She has openly and blatantly shown that, virtually on a daily basis since September
19th, 2014, and garnering more division and xenophobia from that day on. She is doing Scotland's image a lot of harm.
Sturgeon is the one that needs to FRO, instead she continually tells 55.3% of Scots that they can FRO, She has a brass
neck telling us that Scotland is not being listened to.
Edited by Pastor Of Muppets on Saturday 18th January 08:38
So whether we leave or remain in the union and whether we leave or remain in the EU there will be a huge amount of people who's wishes were ignored.
But hey ho - that's democracy for you.
As this article said... like it or not, Brexit will change the terms on which any independence referendum would be fought. Britain, including Scotland, will be out. If Scotland tried to rejoin after independence, issues such as the currency, borders and the UK single market would rise quickly up the agenda. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan...
Edited by Edinburger on Saturday 18th January 11:58
hutchst said:
We seem to be taking our eye off the ball here (for some inexplicable reason). She's not asking for indyref2, she's asking for the sole decision-making power to hold a new referendum once a fortnight, until we get it right, to be handed over to Holyrood.
I mentioned that very thing a couple of pages ago. Sturgeon is st stirring trying to imply that Westminster is denying the Scottish people a right that in actuality doesn't exist, a power that no minority group in the UK should posses and that is the right to unilaterally take decisions that affect the whole of the UK. Independence might be the goal but Sturgeon knows there isn't a majority for that, so with the power to stage referenda on non-competent matters Sturgeon could put a whole host of other questions to the Scots simply to foment division.She could for example before the end of her current terms as FM stage a referendum on whether Scotland wants to join the EU. It is of course a nonsense question as the EU have made it clear that Scotland doesn't exist as a nation and therefore cannot apply to join, but that would be a wedge that could then be used to lever independence.
She could theoretically also put a vote to the Scottish people that the UK Prime Minister should not be recognised by Scotland. Again, non competent, but with the need for s.30 orders removed there is nothing stopping her from running specious questions past the Scottish electorate in the same way Holyrood currently s
t-stirs by debating and voting on specious issues.Edited by Evercross on Saturday 18th January 12:10
Edinburger said:
Pastor Of Muppets said:
StescoG66 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Seems like they want referendum after referendum until (and if) they get the result they are looking for, Got a distinct whiff of Deja Vu there!
Or perhaps deja-poo.We’ve heard this s
t before.........:roll eyes:
One of the problems is that the (minority) who want another go, are making a lot of noise about it, and possibly convincing
some that it's what most of Scotland want, and that is certainly not the case, nowhere even near it.
The vast majority of Scottish folks are just not being overly vocal about it, the oft used phrase 'the people of Scotland are
not being listened to' actually applies more to those that dont want to destroy our United Kingdom than those that do, and
it's Sturgeon that's not doing the listening, she is the one that only believes in democracy if it suits her specific agenda and
all other types of democracy can FRO, She has openly and blatantly shown that, virtually on a daily basis since September
19th, 2014, and garnering more division and xenophobia from that day on. She is doing Scotland's image a lot of harm.
Sturgeon is the one that needs to FRO, instead she continually tells 55.3% of Scots that they can FRO, She has a brass
neck telling us that Scotland is not being listened to.
Edited by Pastor Of Muppets on Saturday 18th January 08:38
So whether we leave or remain in the union and whether we leave or remain in the EU there will be a huge amount of people who's wishes were ignored.
But hey ho - that's democracy for you.
As this article said... like it or not, Brexit will change the terms on which any independence referendum would be fought. Britain, including Scotland, will be out. If Scotland tried to rejoin after independence, issues such as the currency, borders and the UK single market would rise quickly up the agenda. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan...
Edited by Edinburger on Saturday 18th January 11:58
If it had been the other way around and the leave the UK, but stay in the EU side had won, would those who won in that situation `really' be bothered that a large section of the community did not get what `they' wanted? Personally I would think not. Democracy Huh! it can sometimes be a pain, can in not?
Pan Pan Pan said:
Some of the people wishes weren't ignored. They had a vote, and one side won, and the other lost.
If it had been the other way around and the leave the UK, but stay in the EU side had won, would those who won in that situation `really' be bothered that a large section of the community did not get what `they' wanted? Personally I would think not. Democracy Huh! it can sometimes be a pain, can in not?
We have an awful lot of people in this country for whom "Democracy is fine as long as I win". If it had been the other way around and the leave the UK, but stay in the EU side had won, would those who won in that situation `really' be bothered that a large section of the community did not get what `they' wanted? Personally I would think not. Democracy Huh! it can sometimes be a pain, can in not?
Its why we are crap at coalitions & any form of government by consensus - simply because so many are incapable of reaching any kind of consensus & are not willing to compromise on anything.
Probably the worst exponents of that are the Lib Dems which is somewhat ironic given that they are the arch proponents of PR,
We've seen it over Scottish independence, we've seen it over Brexit.
SNP MSP Alex Neil on BBC just now trying to assert that there are legal ways for the SNP to unilaterally run a 'referendum', which the interviewer thankfully is pointing out to him would be nothing more than a glorified opinion poll that the other parties and their supporters could simply boycott, like Catalonia.
He is arguing that, unlike Catalonia, this referendum would be legal and therefore the result would stand, by which the interviewer is saying the result can also legally and legitimately be ignored.
It does appear that the argument is now coming down to the SNP desperately trying to find a way for the UK taxpayer to fund the propaganda exercise Nicola Sturgeon promised her supporters by the end of this year, regardless of the outcome.
If they do somehow find a way then bring it on. The other parties have good reason not to get involved - Labour have their own internal process going on and the Conservatives have a mandate not to engage. The SNP running their own one-horse race would be seen as a sham by an election-weary voting populace and would do them much more harm than good regardless of the outcome. Lose and they are in oblivion. Win and the result will be denounced as a propaganda exercise on a par with third-world politics.
Nippy has always been one for painting herself into a corner, but she's on her tippy-toes now. The push to have a referendum when it is obvious from the voting percentages at the last election that there isn't a majority in support of independence makes her look like (as has been said in here so many times) the process is more important to her than the case for having it. If one asked themselves why, the answer if we assume she is being tactical rather than impulsive is that she is now more concerned about shedding existing support than growing it.
He is arguing that, unlike Catalonia, this referendum would be legal and therefore the result would stand, by which the interviewer is saying the result can also legally and legitimately be ignored.
It does appear that the argument is now coming down to the SNP desperately trying to find a way for the UK taxpayer to fund the propaganda exercise Nicola Sturgeon promised her supporters by the end of this year, regardless of the outcome.
If they do somehow find a way then bring it on. The other parties have good reason not to get involved - Labour have their own internal process going on and the Conservatives have a mandate not to engage. The SNP running their own one-horse race would be seen as a sham by an election-weary voting populace and would do them much more harm than good regardless of the outcome. Lose and they are in oblivion. Win and the result will be denounced as a propaganda exercise on a par with third-world politics.
Nippy has always been one for painting herself into a corner, but she's on her tippy-toes now. The push to have a referendum when it is obvious from the voting percentages at the last election that there isn't a majority in support of independence makes her look like (as has been said in here so many times) the process is more important to her than the case for having it. If one asked themselves why, the answer if we assume she is being tactical rather than impulsive is that she is now more concerned about shedding existing support than growing it.
Edited by Evercross on Sunday 19th January 11:07
An interesting article from someone who voted yes, despite overestimating attendance.
"When tens of thousands marched through Glasgow on Saturday, they saw homeless souls soaked and starving on the pavement.
They passed businesses shuttered and to let. They saw schools where exam results are getting worse by the year. Across the river from their snaking route, they saw the hulking, showpiece hospital where patients have died through bugs picked up on its wards. On every road they trod, they had to dance a Highland Fling to avoid falling down potholes.
All these blights on our biggest city, blights we see repeated across EVERY Scottish town and city, have got worse on the SNP’s watch and are all fixable under Holyrood’s powers. "
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5175416/nico...
"When tens of thousands marched through Glasgow on Saturday, they saw homeless souls soaked and starving on the pavement.
They passed businesses shuttered and to let. They saw schools where exam results are getting worse by the year. Across the river from their snaking route, they saw the hulking, showpiece hospital where patients have died through bugs picked up on its wards. On every road they trod, they had to dance a Highland Fling to avoid falling down potholes.
All these blights on our biggest city, blights we see repeated across EVERY Scottish town and city, have got worse on the SNP’s watch and are all fixable under Holyrood’s powers. "
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5175416/nico...
Alpacaman said:
despite overestimating attendance.
Give Bill Leckie his due - between 11 and 12 thousand was the estimate from those who videoed the march and did a head-count, so 'tens of thousands' is vague enough to be within the realms of accuracy without giving the rabid SNats a reason to ignore him at the first turn.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff