Should remainers vote for the Libs?

[citizensm1th]

B'stard Child said:

Indeed - we joined a common market

We didn't get a referendum on being a party to it morphing into the bloated ponzi scheme we know as the EU

And who's fault was our agreement to change it to the EU?

Could it possibly have been a tory government

That diversion aside it still stands that any vote can be overturned by a subsequent vote so maybe not in the short term but there is every chance that in the future the UK could decide to re join the EU.

[sidicks]

citizensm1th said:

And who's fault was our agreement to change it to the EU?

Could it possibly have been a tory government

That diversion aside it still stands that any vote can be overturned by a subsequent vote so maybe not in the short term but there is every chance that in the future the UK could decide to re join the EU.

So no referendum after all, on joining the EU?

Thanks for the confirmation!

[dandarez]

jjlynn27 said:

It's interesting to see that some people still care how they voted in 1975. It's been a while. Let it go.

For your information Mr Lynnee, I let it go the day after!
Most did.
Guess why? We had far too many other things to worry about, like, for one, getting on with our lives. One thing we didn't have time to moan constantly like today's generation.

As the years went on and the common market of (what was it then, 8 member states?) morphed into a gravy train of bar-stewards interested only in what they could 'make' for themselves, I (and countless others) realised what a mistake we had been conned into.

Then I (we) got a second bite at the cherry (well, I say cherry, by now it had become a huge rotten apple).

Never make the same mistake twice.

Perhaps the moaners of today should let it go, eh? Like most of us did then.

[crankedup]

Bill said:

crankedup said:

Let me start by saying this, the referendum on brexit was held, it was a vote to either stay in the eu OR leave. The electorate voted to leave.
It was not a referendum to vote :
if we leave can we change our minds
if we leave can we pick the best bits of the eu and ditch the bits we don't like
if we leave can we have another vote on what the leave deal looks like!!!!!

Accepting that is the referendum deal we have the Lib Dems openly denouncing the leave vote and threatened to block the will of the people by not agreeing the terms and conditions of the 'leave deal'. They are also mandating a second vote of the leave deal in thier election campaign, led by thier leader, Tim Farron. The Labour Party have rowed back somewhat but still want a referendum regarding the leave deal that the Government negotiate.
These actions and words from those politicians are attempting to manipulate the referendum outcome, this is against the will of the majority of the electorate in reference to the brexit referendum.
The electorate voted to leave the eu, we now must trust the elected Government to deliver the wishes of the electorate majority

It was also not a referendum to vote :
if we leave we can't change our minds
if we leave we can't pick the best bits of the eu and ditch the bits we don't like
if we leave we can't have another vote on what the leave deal looks like!!!!!

And if TM gets a good increase in seats she can consider that a mandate to do as she see fit. If the Lib Dems win (They won't...) that would be a mandate for them to do as they see fit.

Brexiters don't agree on precisely how we should leave so I don't see how you can claim that wanting a discussion is undemocratic. If anything more votes and discussion makes it more democratic.

I have never said that 'I don't want a discussion'. What I have said is that the terms of the referendum did not include a second vote or. revisit on the terms and conditions agreed with the eu. I agree discussion is good and interesting but will not change anything that the Government deems a 'done deal'.

[citizensm1th]

sidicks said:

So no referendum after all, on joining the EU?

Thanks for the confirmation!

Do you feel all warm and fuzzy inside now?

How sad you need to try to divert from the point I was making with such a shallow need to feel vindicated

[crankedup]

SilverSixer said:

crankedup said:

The Labour Party have rowed back somewhat but still want a referendum regarding the leave deal that the Government negotiate.

Edited by crankedup on Thursday 27th April 12:05

This is untrue. The Labour party policy is not in favour of another referendum. Only LibDems are proposing this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39665835

Thank you, I stand corrected. However, for those that can decipher the Labour Party proposals, I salute you.

[crankedup]

B'stard Child said:

citizensm1th said:

In 1975 we had a referendum to join the eec which due to our various governments agreement became the eu as you well know

Crap butism

Indeed - we joined a common market

We didn't get a referendum on being a party to it morphing into the bloated ponzi scheme we know as the EU

Absolutely, we were conned. Politicians glimpsed a opportunity to form a gravy train and the rest is history.

[ou sont les biscuits]

crankedup said:

Thank you, I stand corrected. However, for those that can decipher the Labour Party proposals, I salute you.

Until we see the manifestos published, positions may change.

Unlike most elections, I will actually be reading the main ones this time round.

[Bill]

Hayek said:

Bill said:

Brexiters don't agree on precisely how we should leave so I don't see how you can claim that wanting a discussion is undemocratic. If anything more votes and discussion makes it more democratic.

If we actually leave I think this doesn't really matter. If we actually leave, future governments that we vote in will be able to change whatever arrangements as they see fit. If future governments find themselves in some kind of soft-bound position because of the EU as they are with us as members of the EU then I would think in that scenario we hadn't properly left.

I'm sure plenty would agree with you, but plenty (even among Leavers) wouldn't. Our leaving will inevitably be a compromise. Hopefully it will be one that suits the most people, but as a compromise I'll be surprised if it suits the hardliners from either side.

[crankedup]

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

Thank you, I stand corrected. However, for those that can decipher the Labour Party proposals, I salute you.

Until we see the manifestos published, positions may change.

Unlike most elections, I will actually be reading the main ones this time round.

Indeed, we must wait for the manifesto of each Party, which is why I used the term proposals. Who knows what the Labour Party will end up with as a manifesto!

[Bill]

crankedup said:

I have never said that 'I don't want a discussion'. What I have said is that the terms of the referendum did not include a second vote or. revisit on the terms and conditions agreed with the eu. I agree discussion is good and interesting but will not change anything that the Government deems a 'done deal'.

It looks like you won't entertain discussion. The referendum didn't include terms for a second vote, but didn't preclude it. If enough people want a further vote, or the government offer it, then that's democracy surely.

Personally I suspect the more vocally anti further referendum or parliamentary votes aren't pro-democracy but pro getting their own way.

[MarshPhantom]

Rachel Johnson has joined the Lib Dems and may stand.

[citizensm1th]

MarshPhantom said:

Rachel Johnson has joined the Lib Dems and may stand.

i wonder what interesting vernacular boris will use about her

[Zod]

Atomic12C said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

I think a fair number of people who voted leave are going to be fairly hacked off when attempts to control the numbers of immigrants fall short of expectations. A quick google would suggest that there are maybe 5 million people here with foreign passports, of which maybe a bit over 3 million are from the EU. Unemployment is historically low, and things I've read suggest that the economy is operating pretty close to full employment. So you could argue that the unemployment we have is mainly frictional. We depend on migration to fill holes in key areas that we can't fill ourselves because the supply of domestic workers just isn't there. Any thought that the government can somehow determine what the supply of labour from overseas should be fills me full of horror. They'll just cock it up and create shortages. I'd far rather let the market decide what labour they need, and hire it from wherever they want. Add to this the fact that the population is ageing........ more overseas labour will be required to maintain the status quo.

In short free movement of labour within the EU is something I don't have a problem with. I think that it's something our economy currently depends on, and I can't see that changing in the short to medium term. I just wish the government had the balls to be up front about it.

I think you are fundamentally missing the point of a 'leave voters' position on 'immigration' and numbers.

Once out of the EU the UK should be in a position to control who can reside within the UK.
It will (or should) have more powers to remove people from the UK that should not be here.

When it comes to the economy and jobs, then if there are positions that require skilled labour or positions that require foreign work forces to fill gaps in the jobs market, then surely the UK government would be in a position to allow that to happen. (Given a balance of benefit to society I'd assume - meaning how likely that imported labour is to adversely affect infrastructure or services etc.).

But the main difference would be that there would not simply be an 'open door' approach whereby any number of EU nationals can choose to live in the UK and continue the 'economic migration' away from the poorer EU members towards the richer EU members.

And its that final point that is carrying a heavy burden within the EU project.
This was before Merkel invited the rest of the world in to the EU.

Not a chance. The EU's negotiating position begins with protecting the rights of EU citizens already here. Leave voters who want mass deportations are going to be unhappy.

[don'tbesilly]

Zod said:

Atomic12C said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

I think a fair number of people who voted leave are going to be fairly hacked off when attempts to control the numbers of immigrants fall short of expectations. A quick google would suggest that there are maybe 5 million people here with foreign passports, of which maybe a bit over 3 million are from the EU. Unemployment is historically low, and things I've read suggest that the economy is operating pretty close to full employment. So you could argue that the unemployment we have is mainly frictional. We depend on migration to fill holes in key areas that we can't fill ourselves because the supply of domestic workers just isn't there. Any thought that the government can somehow determine what the supply of labour from overseas should be fills me full of horror. They'll just cock it up and create shortages. I'd far rather let the market decide what labour they need, and hire it from wherever they want. Add to this the fact that the population is ageing........ more overseas labour will be required to maintain the status quo.

In short free movement of labour within the EU is something I don't have a problem with. I think that it's something our economy currently depends on, and I can't see that changing in the short to medium term. I just wish the government had the balls to be up front about it.

I think you are fundamentally missing the point of a 'leave voters' position on 'immigration' and numbers.

Once out of the EU the UK should be in a position to control who can reside within the UK.
It will (or should) have more powers to remove people from the UK that should not be here.

When it comes to the economy and jobs, then if there are positions that require skilled labour or positions that require foreign work forces to fill gaps in the jobs market, then surely the UK government would be in a position to allow that to happen. (Given a balance of benefit to society I'd assume - meaning how likely that imported labour is to adversely affect infrastructure or services etc.).

But the main difference would be that there would not simply be an 'open door' approach whereby any number of EU nationals can choose to live in the UK and continue the 'economic migration' away from the poorer EU members towards the richer EU members.

And its that final point that is carrying a heavy burden within the EU project.
This was before Merkel invited the rest of the world in to the EU.

Not a chance. The EU's negotiating position begins with protecting the rights of EU citizens already here. Leave voters who want mass deportations are going to be unhappy.

Zod said:

Leave voters who want mass deportations are going to be unhappy

Such Leave voters exist do they?

I've never seen such a 'want' written on PH, and never seen such a 'want' expressed anywhere else.
Perhaps you could give your post some credence, or I'd suggest ///ajd knows your log in details, which were it me would give me grave concerns.

[B'stard Child]

Zod said:

Atomic12C said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

I think a fair number of people who voted leave are going to be fairly hacked off when attempts to control the numbers of immigrants fall short of expectations. A quick google would suggest that there are maybe 5 million people here with foreign passports, of which maybe a bit over 3 million are from the EU. Unemployment is historically low, and things I've read suggest that the economy is operating pretty close to full employment. So you could argue that the unemployment we have is mainly frictional. We depend on migration to fill holes in key areas that we can't fill ourselves because the supply of domestic workers just isn't there. Any thought that the government can somehow determine what the supply of labour from overseas should be fills me full of horror. They'll just cock it up and create shortages. I'd far rather let the market decide what labour they need, and hire it from wherever they want. Add to this the fact that the population is ageing........ more overseas labour will be required to maintain the status quo.

In short free movement of labour within the EU is something I don't have a problem with. I think that it's something our economy currently depends on, and I can't see that changing in the short to medium term. I just wish the government had the balls to be up front about it.

I think you are fundamentally missing the point of a 'leave voters' position on 'immigration' and numbers.

Once out of the EU the UK should be in a position to control who can reside within the UK.
It will (or should) have more powers to remove people from the UK that should not be here.

When it comes to the economy and jobs, then if there are positions that require skilled labour or positions that require foreign work forces to fill gaps in the jobs market, then surely the UK government would be in a position to allow that to happen. (Given a balance of benefit to society I'd assume - meaning how likely that imported labour is to adversely affect infrastructure or services etc.).

But the main difference would be that there would not simply be an 'open door' approach whereby any number of EU nationals can choose to live in the UK and continue the 'economic migration' away from the poorer EU members towards the richer EU members.

And its that final point that is carrying a heavy burden within the EU project.
This was before Merkel invited the rest of the world in to the EU.

Not a chance. The EU's negotiating position begins with protecting the rights of EU citizens already here. Leave voters who want mass deportations are going to be unhappy.

Who are these people - the BNP card carrying loonies?

I have no problem with any number of people being unhappy about not getting mass deportations - equally I have no problem with remainers being unhappy we are leaving - I think there might be a few more of those than the leavers who think they are going to see mass deportations

[citizensm1th]

don'tbesilly said:

Such Leave voters exist do they?

I've never seen such a 'want' written on PH, and never seen such a 'want' expressed anywhere else.
Perhaps you could give your post some credence, or I'd suggest ///ajd knows your log in details, which were it me would give me grave concerns.

silly daily express

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/667952/EU-B...

[Likes Fast Cars]

MarshPhantom said:

Rachel Johnson has joined the Lib Dems and may stand.

Has she lost her mind?

[crankedup]

Bill said:

crankedup said:

I have never said that 'I don't want a discussion'. What I have said is that the terms of the referendum did not include a second vote or. revisit on the terms and conditions agreed with the eu. I agree discussion is good and interesting but will not change anything that the Government deems a 'done deal'.

It looks like you won't entertain discussion. The referendum didn't include terms for a second vote, but didn't preclude it. If enough people want a further vote, or the government offer it, then that's democracy surely.

Personally I suspect the more vocally anti further referendum or parliamentary votes aren't pro-democracy but pro getting their own way.

Nothing further that I can add to what I have already said without repeating myself. But if you begin thinking that referendums and elections are merely openers I am sorry to say you will be disappointed. Far to many folks disappointed the referendum outcome has gone against thier wishes seem unable to accept the inevitable. We are out of the eu, it's only a matter of getting the best deal.
Mob rule is not the answer.

[don'tbesilly]

citizensm1th said:

don'tbesilly said:

Such Leave voters exist do they?

I've never seen such a 'want' written on PH, and never seen such a 'want' expressed anywhere else.
Perhaps you could give your post some credence, or I'd suggest ///ajd knows your log in details, which were it me would give me grave concerns.

silly daily express

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/667952/EU-B...

You got that correct (silly Daily Express), get past the 'clickbait' headline (that sucked you in) the words 'mass deportations' don't appear anywhere in the article, and does nothing to support the notion from Zod that Leave voters want mass deportations.

You've failed so far, do you want to try again with something substantive.