Russian supreme court bans Jehovah's Witnesses
Discussion
Not my thing personally but...
Like any move to restrict personal beliefs and practices, I find this a disappointing step by a government that should know and understand through it's own recent history why this is wrong.
“incitement of….religious discord” doesn't really seem sufficient excuse.
Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses after supreme court rules Christian sect 'extremists'
Like any move to restrict personal beliefs and practices, I find this a disappointing step by a government that should know and understand through it's own recent history why this is wrong.
“incitement of….religious discord” doesn't really seem sufficient excuse.
Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses after supreme court rules Christian sect 'extremists'
Goaty Bill 2 said:
Not my thing personally but...
Like any move to restrict personal beliefs and practices, I find this a disappointing step by a government that should know and understand through it's own recent history why this is wrong.
“incitement of….religious discord” doesn't really seem sufficient excuse.
Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses after supreme court rules Christian sect 'extremists'
Banning seems rather over the top but it is Russia; JWs are extremists by any objective measure though.Like any move to restrict personal beliefs and practices, I find this a disappointing step by a government that should know and understand through it's own recent history why this is wrong.
“incitement of….religious discord” doesn't really seem sufficient excuse.
Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses after supreme court rules Christian sect 'extremists'
gadgetmac said:
JW's are a special case. They would quite willingly refuse their children blood transfusions and allow them to die in line with their perverted beliefs.
f
k 'em.
All religions / belief systems are 'a special case'. fk 'em.I'm with you on the blood transfusion thing, and I don't think they are alone in that one.
I presume preaching against military service would be on the Russian list as well, but the Quakers have always been pacifists too.
They have a fair few Muslims in Chechnya, (and a history of problems), yet I don't think they've banned Islam.
I've had some pretty good debates with JWs over the years. At least they (the ones I spoke with) were polite and reasonable in presenting their arguments, and in listening to mine.
Love 'em or hate 'em, I object strongly to banning on principle.
Goaty Bill 2 said:
All religions / belief systems are 'a special case'.
I'm with you on the blood transfusion thing, and I don't think they are alone in that one.
I presume preaching against military service would be on the Russian list as well, but the Quakers have always been pacifists too.
They have a fair few Muslims in Chechnya, (and a history of problems), yet I don't think they've banned Islam.
I've had some pretty good debates with JWs over the years. At least they (the ones I spoke with) were polite and reasonable in presenting their arguments, and in listening to mine.
Love 'em or hate 'em, I object strongly to banning on principle.
I'm torn. On the one hand 'freedom of speech' etc but on the other there's the indoctrination of their Children into the cult which is dispicable but doesn't only apply to JW's.I'm with you on the blood transfusion thing, and I don't think they are alone in that one.
I presume preaching against military service would be on the Russian list as well, but the Quakers have always been pacifists too.
They have a fair few Muslims in Chechnya, (and a history of problems), yet I don't think they've banned Islam.
I've had some pretty good debates with JWs over the years. At least they (the ones I spoke with) were polite and reasonable in presenting their arguments, and in listening to mine.
Love 'em or hate 'em, I object strongly to banning on principle.
I can't blame the Russians for going down the proscription route.
gadgetmac said:
I'm torn. On the one hand 'freedom of speech' etc but on the other there's the indoctrination of their Children into the cult which is dispicable but doesn't only apply to JW's.
I can't blame the Russians for going down the proscription route.
But this is how it starts,I can't blame the Russians for going down the proscription route.
Call something 'hate speech' and people don't mind you banning it.
Pick an obscure religious cult - same result.
Later someone calls something no one ever thought of as 'hate speech' and suddenly people are being prosecuted for something no one ever previously thought of as hateful.
Soon the state is controlling all that you say, and not just what you can't say but the very words you must use when speaking.
The Russians know this as well as any country in the world, and better than most, yet it begins again...
The count of Russian citizens in the gulags at the end of the Stalinist period, for simply making a joke that the state found offensive, was in the millions.
Before long, simply speaking the truth can become impossible, words become forgotten or their meanings twisted out of recognition.
The place and time to stop, is before it begins.
gadgetmac said:
Yeah, its a fair point. But then so is the protection of children from those who would stand by and watch them die in the name of religion.
We ban lots of things you know.
They weren't banned because of their beliefs on blood transfusions though, were they? They were banned because their pamphlets are apparently extremist hate speech because they believe that their religion is right and all the other ones are wrong..We ban lots of things you know.
Nothing to do with the fact that they view the Orthodox church as false perversions of Christianity and are happy to explain why to anyone who will listen, don't vote in elections so are useless as a voter base, eschew nationalism, politics and are pacifists so are useless as soldiers or propaganda.
They're basically a low-hanging fruit and a thorn in the side of Orthodox church. The same fair and impartial thinking was surely behind the over to expel the Salvation Army from Moscow at the Turn of the millennium.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/04/20/russia-court-b...
For a former communist country, the church seems to be quite powerful over there. They're waging war on pornography IIRC, too.
I used to work with a JW in the 90's. We'd spoof for coffee and he would never participate as it was gambling and against his beliefs; he would however expect a cup.
We would make him two cups, one with no sugar (his preference) and one with three sugars and tell him to "take a gamble" on which one was his. He wouldn't.
Very, very strange beliefs but outwardly a perfectly decent, affable chap (he did like his steaks well done though!!!!!!).
We would make him two cups, one with no sugar (his preference) and one with three sugars and tell him to "take a gamble" on which one was his. He wouldn't.
Very, very strange beliefs but outwardly a perfectly decent, affable chap (he did like his steaks well done though!!!!!!).
glazbagun said:
gadgetmac said:
Yeah, its a fair point. But then so is the protection of children from those who would stand by and watch them die in the name of religion.
We ban lots of things you know.
They weren't banned because of their beliefs on blood transfusions though, were they? They were banned because their pamphlets are apparently extremist hate speech because they believe that their religion is right and all the other ones are wrong..We ban lots of things you know.
Nothing to do with the fact that they view the Orthodox church as false perversions of Christianity and are happy to explain why to anyone who will listen, don't vote in elections so are useless as a voter base, eschew nationalism, politics and are pacifists so are useless as soldiers or propaganda.
They're basically a low-hanging fruit and a thorn in the side of Orthodox church. The same fair and impartial thinking was surely behind the over to expel the Salvation Army from Moscow at the Turn of the millennium.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/04/20/russia-court-b...
For a former communist country, the church seems to be quite powerful over there. They're waging war on pornography IIRC, too.
The resurgence of Christianity in Russia is quite remarkable, but I'm not sure it's the Orthodox church behind this. If it is, then shame on them. The memory of their own persecution is in that case far too short.
Our freedom of speech and expression including the freedom to follow ones own religious (or otherwise) beliefs is the critical basis of all of our freedoms.
The measure of ones dedication to freedom is traditionally defined something like; The willingness to defend the rights of people you entirely disagree with to speak freely, express themselves and believe what they believe, in spite of what you think of them or how those things they say and believe make you feel.
Complaining about it here, will of course, make no difference at all.
I strongly suspect Vlad doesn't look in on us very often in any case.
Mr Tracy said:
Given that they believe only 144,000 thousand of them will ascend to heaven (to be protected from the complete destruction of the earth by Satan during Armageddon) I'm surprised they go house to house to recruit. Surely that just creates more competition for the available slots 
That has remained a mystery to me.As I understood it, the 'list' was pre-selected, which would on the face of it also negate the need for preaching and converting.
I suspect there must a bit more detail that to it that I never got a clear understanding of.
In the 'village' where I live, now really a suburb of Chelmsford, there still stands a little brick chapel that was built in Victorian times by a Christian sect called The Peculiar People, geographically restricted to Essex and surrounding counties. The name was a biblical variation of 'The Chosen People', often applied to Jews. Their received a fair bit of flak from the rest of the village at the time because of their refusal to let the local doctors treat them (or their children) when they were ill - instead they would sit in the chapel and pray loud and long for their recovery. (Mind you, given the state of medical knowledge at the time, they may have been backing the right horse ... )
Some villagers, though, maintained a certain respect for them as they were clean living people, and not plagued by the drunkenness that was all too common at the time.
But it was during the First World War that things came to a head, as the Peculiar People refused to fight, and they became less tolerated. The Second World War pretty well finished them off, and I believe they amalgamated with other Christian fundamentalist churches, where they still survive (in a way) in one or two Essex locations.
At the same time, the local Brewery was the major employer, and this was owned by a very strict C of E family. Their Protestant Puritanism extended even beyond the grave, as they stipulated in their wills that their bequests to Church-run charities held only so long as the local vicars stayed away from 'Romish' practices. They controlled the 'living' of the vicar, and used to sit in church timing his sermons - if they ran less than 40 minutes there was all hell to pay. At the same time, they accumulated a fortune selling alcohol to local people at the pubs they owned, but where other wealthy locals would hand coins to the children, this family passed out religious tracts they had printed, and expected to be bowed and scraped to as they walked down the street. When the business fell into the hands of spinster sisters in the 1920's, they espoused the Temperance Movement, closed the brewery, threw half the village out of work and retired comfortably to Tunbridge Wells.
Comparing the hypocrisy of these pub-owning puritans to the misguided fundamentalism of the chapel-goers, I think I know which side my verdict would fall.
Some villagers, though, maintained a certain respect for them as they were clean living people, and not plagued by the drunkenness that was all too common at the time.
But it was during the First World War that things came to a head, as the Peculiar People refused to fight, and they became less tolerated. The Second World War pretty well finished them off, and I believe they amalgamated with other Christian fundamentalist churches, where they still survive (in a way) in one or two Essex locations.
At the same time, the local Brewery was the major employer, and this was owned by a very strict C of E family. Their Protestant Puritanism extended even beyond the grave, as they stipulated in their wills that their bequests to Church-run charities held only so long as the local vicars stayed away from 'Romish' practices. They controlled the 'living' of the vicar, and used to sit in church timing his sermons - if they ran less than 40 minutes there was all hell to pay. At the same time, they accumulated a fortune selling alcohol to local people at the pubs they owned, but where other wealthy locals would hand coins to the children, this family passed out religious tracts they had printed, and expected to be bowed and scraped to as they walked down the street. When the business fell into the hands of spinster sisters in the 1920's, they espoused the Temperance Movement, closed the brewery, threw half the village out of work and retired comfortably to Tunbridge Wells.
Comparing the hypocrisy of these pub-owning puritans to the misguided fundamentalism of the chapel-goers, I think I know which side my verdict would fall.
Edited by Roofless Toothless on Friday 21st April 12:00
Just returned from a holiday in our cottage in France. We chose this cottage because it is secluded, next door is 500m away in one direction and over a km in the other direction. The road is single track and winding - no one uses the road unless they are going to/from a house on the road.
During the holiday the JWs turned up - on realising I wan't French they soon gave up, and we had a very pleasant chat about England and our cottage. Just utterly strange that they bothered door knocking in such a place.
During the holiday the JWs turned up - on realising I wan't French they soon gave up, and we had a very pleasant chat about England and our cottage. Just utterly strange that they bothered door knocking in such a place.
Many many years ago I had some friends in the Whitby area who were JWs, lovely people who would do anything to help people and certainly not doorknockers or preachers to the unconverted. Very entrenched and unwavering in their views though.
Are they a Christian sect as the OP states? I always thought that their beliefs pre-dated Christianity and were more akin to OT stuff.
Are they a Christian sect as the OP states? I always thought that their beliefs pre-dated Christianity and were more akin to OT stuff.
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