Discussion
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
See above Wiggy.
Firstly, why fencing at all?
Secondly see the difference in the fencing
thirdly can you actually foresee ring fencing the valley with the MaxSecurity penitentiary version ? And how / who would pay?
It was a simple, almost rhetorical question for Sticky to see if they were capable of answering a question without insults or answering a different question nobody had asked. I've got my answer now and won't partake in this thread any more unless there is a change of debate as it is a waste of time.Firstly, why fencing at all?
Secondly see the difference in the fencing
thirdly can you actually foresee ring fencing the valley with the MaxSecurity penitentiary version ? And how / who would pay?
wiggy001 said:
Haha - do you honestly think I was suggesting that wire fence was in any way fox proof?! Yes you were Of course it's not! You posted a picture of a large expanse of farmland in a valley, presumably to demonstrate that fox-proof fencing wasn't practical. I showed an alternative image with wire fencing which could presumably be swapped for something fox-proof.
The fact that you have such a low expectation of anyone that disagrees with you says volumes and probably accounts for your arrogance.
The fact that you have such a low expectation of anyone that disagrees with you says volumes and probably accounts for your arrogance.
wiggy001 said:
It was a simple, almost rhetorical question for Sticky to see if they were capable of answering a question without insults or answering a different question nobody had asked. I've got my answer now and won't partake in this thread any more unless there is a change of debate as it is a waste of time.
I have embarrassed myself, I will make a lame excuse and then flounce offgood job
Edited by Stickyfinger on Tuesday 30th May 13:43
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
wiggy001 said:
It was a simple, almost rhetorical question for Sticky to see if they were capable of answering a question without insults or answering a different question nobody had asked. I've got my answer now and won't partake in this thread any more unless there is a change of debate as it is a waste of time.
What ? I am asking you if you can correlate the difference and the circumstances of the 'real world' of the open farmlands that cover the countryside.
Do you concede that 'fencing it all in' is not a practical solution ?
As I said, my post was simply to illustrate a point that Sticky is incapable of answering even the most straightforward of questions. I could say that the sky is blue and be told I'm an idiot.
wiggy001 said:
Of course it's not a practical solution in all cases. Probably in most cases. Maybe in the case of the picture I posted where there is fencing already (so it's possibly just a cost issue then). But then it's already been stated that a tiny percentage of lambs (which we are talking about here) are taken by foxes, so it probably doesn't matter anyway.
As I said, my post was simply to illustrate a point that Sticky is incapable of answering even the most straightforward of questions. I could say that the sky is blue and be told I'm an idiot.
Your question has been answered numbers of times, I also answered it in a very straightforward way....even with an image. Not sure what you did not get but rest assured I am happy to answer any question you ask with facts/images if it helps you.As I said, my post was simply to illustrate a point that Sticky is incapable of answering even the most straightforward of questions. I could say that the sky is blue and be told I'm an idiot.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
(do you know that is common riding where when also showjumping etc ?)
Blimey.Car questions, meat questions, showjumping questions, images of huge rolling hills with no mention of the stats to show foxes are not the main reason for lamb deaths...
What next? These torturers often wear the same colour red as Woolworths used for signage and I must have enjoyed some pick 'n' mix?
Desperate times in the pro-hunt camp.
Isn't the whole fox hunting debate hugely swayed because it's seen as an elite 'establishment' pursuit? There is an animal cruelty aspect of course, but I'm not sure that is the primary focus.
For example, if foxes were controlled by packs of hounds, on a quiet Wednesday morning by farmers and scruffy blokes from the village, cull a few mangy foxes and back to the pub for a pie and pint, nobody would really give a stuff.
Put a few Lords and other privileged toffs on horseback to do the same and they're a very visual target for the trendy socialists saboteur who are using fox hunting as a vent to their anti-establishment anger.
For example, if foxes were controlled by packs of hounds, on a quiet Wednesday morning by farmers and scruffy blokes from the village, cull a few mangy foxes and back to the pub for a pie and pint, nobody would really give a stuff.
Put a few Lords and other privileged toffs on horseback to do the same and they're a very visual target for the trendy socialists saboteur who are using fox hunting as a vent to their anti-establishment anger.
Digby said:
Blimey.
Car questions, meat questions, showjumping questions, images of huge rolling hills with no mention of the stats to show foxes are not the main reason for lamb deaths...
What next? These torturers often wear the same colour red as Woolworths used for signage and I must have enjoyed some pick 'n' mix?
Desperate times in the pro-hunt camp.
Stats relating lamb mortality to fox predation is notoriously inaccurate to those of us with an education. Defra do not hold such data as it is impossible to immediately verify whether the carcass of a dead lamb has been attacked by a fox, a domestic dog or any other predator. It can be done via DNA testing on the saliva surrounding the bites but this is impractical. Various academic studies puts lamb mortality at around the 5% to 10% mark as a direct result of foxes. Car questions, meat questions, showjumping questions, images of huge rolling hills with no mention of the stats to show foxes are not the main reason for lamb deaths...
What next? These torturers often wear the same colour red as Woolworths used for signage and I must have enjoyed some pick 'n' mix?
Desperate times in the pro-hunt camp.
That said, what I find as an academic to be truly outrageous is the quantity of statistics collated by various groups with an agenda - and believe me there's a lot of it about. Pseudoscientists of the tree-hugger brigade will churn out 'research after research' that "conclusively" proves foxes don't eat lambs and cite tonnes of meaningless data to further hammer home their point.
The simple fact is without DNA testing the saliva of bites and full post mortems of all dead lambs, and until such a conclusive study is done by researchers with no axe to grind, statements such as yours are meaningless and make you out to be some clueless sandal-wearing, tofu-munching, tree-hugging, pot-smoking, lentil-loving liberal.
Meanwhile, the same people that churn out the data surrounding fox predation on lambs have produced very little on the impact of foxes on poultry and pheasant rearing. Presumably it makes painful reading for the snowflakes.
Defra, on the other hand, have a ton of statistical data on the economic impact foxes have on poultry and pheasant systems.
Halb said:
It's the last blood so-called 'sport', all others were banned, hare coursing (traditional working class sport) was in the same ban.
Maybe because it has a practical end result/application rather like catching rats/rabbits/pigeons...eg "pests/vermin" ?Hares have not been a particularity large problem for a long long time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1477176/Wha...
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Digby said:
Not sure on what your point is ? I don't see a red coat. Does everyone look in fancy dress ? (do you know that is common riding where when also showjumping etc ?)
I'm assuming it's yet another inaccurate stereotype view that hunting with hounds is for Tory Toffs.
Edited by A57 HSV on Tuesday 30th May 17:09
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
The Surveyor said:
Isn't the whole fox hunting debate hugely swayed because it's seen as an elite 'establishment' pursuit? There is an animal cruelty aspect of course, but I'm not sure that is the primary focus.
For example, if foxes were controlled by packs of hounds, on a quiet Wednesday morning by farmers and scruffy blokes from the village, cull a few mangy foxes and back to the pub for a pie and pint, nobody would really give a stuff.
Put a few Lords and other privileged toffs on horseback to do the same and they're a very visual target for the trendy socialists saboteur who are using fox hunting as a vent to their anti-establishment anger.
The bold is what happens in the majority of instances, but don't let the haters be distracted.For example, if foxes were controlled by packs of hounds, on a quiet Wednesday morning by farmers and scruffy blokes from the village, cull a few mangy foxes and back to the pub for a pie and pint, nobody would really give a stuff.
Put a few Lords and other privileged toffs on horseback to do the same and they're a very visual target for the trendy socialists saboteur who are using fox hunting as a vent to their anti-establishment anger.
The members of the Banwen Miners Hunt who originally hunted foxes in and around the slag heaps of Banwen, South Wales, might take offence at being called scruffy blokes. The miners took enormous pride in turning out smartly. No doubt they'd have been amused to be called Toffs.
I believe hunts were also affiliated to mines in Yorkshire, but I could be wrong.
Here's some old footage of the miners finishing their shift and going straight on to a hunt. WARNING some miners are wearing red coats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXetFcwSgk4
The Surveyor said:
For example, if foxes were controlled by packs of hounds, on a quiet Wednesday morning by farmers and scruffy blokes from the village, cull a few mangy foxes and back to the pub for a pie and pint, nobody would really give a stuff.
I think you would find the majority of people would still despise their actions if it were public knowledge. Many farmers will not allow such people on their land and I can assure you it's not only to do with spoiling their fields etc.Perhaps all the excuses relate to the fact these people can't understand why the majority of people in the UK simply don't like them.
That may also play a part in why illegal activity goes on.
Digby said:
The Surveyor said:
For example, if foxes were controlled by packs of hounds, on a quiet Wednesday morning by farmers and scruffy blokes from the village, cull a few mangy foxes and back to the pub for a pie and pint, nobody would really give a stuff.
I think you would find the majority of people would still despise their actions if it were public knowledge. Many farmers will not allow such people on their land and I can assure you it's not only to do with spoiling their fields etc.Perhaps all the excuses relate to the fact these people can't understand why the majority of people in the UK simply don't like them.
That may also play a part in why illegal activity goes on.
The majority of people in UK don't like them? Are you refereeing to this poll?:
A majority of the British public are in favour of keeping a number of activities banned in the Hunting Act illegal: fox hunting (80%); deer hunting (86%); hare hunting and coursing (88%); dog fighting (98%); and badger baiting (95%).
Technical note: Ipsos MORI interviewed a nationally representative quota sample of 1,971 adults in Great Britain aged 15+. Interviews were carried out face-to-face, in home, using CAPI (Computer Aided Personal Interviewing Laptops), as part of the Ipsos MORI Omnibus (Capibus). Fieldwork was conducted between 5 and 21 December 2014. The results have been weighted to reflect the known profile of the adult population.
Respondents were asked the following questions, and the order respondents were asked about each activity was rotated:
Now a question about sports where animals are set on other animals to fight or kill them. These activities are currently illegal in Great Britain. For each one I read out, please tell me whether you think it should or should not be made legal again. Just read out the letter that applies in each case." SHOWCARD Fox Hunting; Deer Hunting; Hare Hunting and Coursing; Dog fighting; Badger baiting. - Yes, should be made legal again - No, should not be made legal again - Don’t Know
So 1,971 people of age 15+ asked a series of questions which just conveniently included questions about Dog fighting and Badger baiting. Err okay!
In my experience, most people aren't that bothered either way.
Edited by A57 HSV on Tuesday 30th May 17:54
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