The Gender Non-binary debate.

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Discussion

Spanna

Original Poster:

3,519 posts

112 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
I can't find a thread here about it and it seems we should get informed as it's hitting the mainstream. Piers Morgan was just this morning having a discussion with two gender non-conformists on Good Morning Britain. The problem I have with the 'identity' thing is you may feel you look a certain way but you can't police what's in my head and inevitably my thoughts on that will come out in speech naturally. These gender neutral people on GMB appeared to be a man and a woman, however both were actually born the opposite of how they looked and identified as non-binary.

This issue seemed to take hold quickly in Canada at the back end of last year, but the debate seems to be the same all over the West. This video is the probably the most balanced in terms of getting both sides across:

https://youtu.be/kasiov0ytEc

It is 54 minutes long I know but you get a male professor debating his side and a transgendered professor debating their side.

My view is that if these ideas and ideals ever make their way into law they will be utilised by the nastiest people. Let's say a male is convicted of rape, he can suddenly identify as a woman and be sent to a women's prison, right? How does this work with changing rooms? Can I now just use the women's and not be scrutinised?

It seems to me this is all just oppression olympics, who can get the most out of being 'marginalised.' The other thing is kids are impressionable and will jump on this after seeing it online, that muddies the water for people with genuine gender/sex issues who get lumped in with kids doing it for a fad. Some people need real genuine help with it. Also, I've watched a few videos on YT by the gender non-conformists and they are always screwing up their pronouns and bumbling out sentences saying "OMG I'm so sorry I called you a girl." Well, that's identity for you, they look like a girl, you call them 'she', that's your brain working and you can't police that.

TL;DR. Gender neutrality. What should we do, if anything, to accomodate them better in society? Why and why not?



scherzkeks

4,460 posts

70 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Spanna said:
I can't find a thread here about it and it seems we should get informed as it's hitting the mainstream. Piers Morgan was just this morning having a discussion with two gender non-conformists on Good Morning Britain. The problem I have with the 'identity' thing is you may feel you look a certain way but you can't police what's in my head and inevitably my thoughts on that will come out in speech naturally. These gender neutral people on GMB appeared to be a man and a woman, however both were actually born the opposite of how they looked and identified as non-binary.

This issue seemed to take hold quickly in Canada at the back end of last year, but the debate seems to be the same all over the West. This video is the probably the most balanced in terms of getting both sides across:

https://youtu.be/kasiov0ytEc

It is 54 minutes long I know but you get a male professor debating his side and a transgendered professor debating their side.

My view is that if these ideas and ideals ever make their way into law they will be utilised by the nastiest people. Let's say a male is convicted of rape, he can suddenly identify as a woman and be sent to a women's prison, right? How does this work with changing rooms? Can I now just use the women's and not be scrutinised?

It seems to me this is all just oppression olympics, who can get the most out of being 'marginalised.' The other thing is kids are impressionable and will jump on this after seeing it online, that muddies the water for people with genuine gender/sex issues who get lumped in with kids doing it for a fad. Some people need real genuine help with it. Also, I've watched a few videos on YT by the gender non-conformists and they are always screwing up their pronouns and bumbling out sentences saying "OMG I'm so sorry I called you a girl." Well, that's identity for you, they look like a girl, you call them 'she', that's your brain working and you can't police that.

TL;DR. Gender neutrality. What should we do, if anything, to accomodate them better in society? Why and why not?
We should ignore it and focus on issues that matter.

PurpleMoonlight

13,602 posts

93 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
I don't have time for these 'look at me I'm special' people, because they aren't.

Spanna

Original Poster:

3,519 posts

112 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Can we ignore it though? In Canada they've put these identities in their Human Rights Law protected in a similar way to hate speech. It's quite ludicrous to many people and if I ever ask a normal person they have no clue what non-binary even is, yet they're taking political ground with their ideology.

Personally I think it's part of a wider political movement, but this specific debate and gender non-conformity might breach its way into schools. I see that as incredibly harmful and confusing to kids.

Here's something that kids have seen elsewhere in the World:



Using terms like sexually attracted is very confusing before and during puberty I would think. I'd just like to see what the thoughts are here on a mostly conservative male forum.

Shuvi McTupya

21,431 posts

183 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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I am wondering why that chart thing featurs a fictitious animal as it's emblem?

Unicorns do not exist, and neither does gender? Is that the message?

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Mark Benson

4,891 posts

205 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Spanna said:
It seems to me this is all just oppression olympics, who can get the most out of being 'marginalised.'
Pretty much my opinion. There undoubtedly are people who feel 'trapped in the wrong body' - I worked with one once, and (s)he was miserable, she saved every penny from work and had a series of operations to become what she is now, in mind and body a woman (at least to look at), but born a man.

But there are so many self-identifying 'non-binary' people screeching for attention these days that the genuine cases like the person I knew are themselves marginalised by the attention-seeking narcissists who've simultaneously brought the debate into the mainstream and cheapened it to be all about them.

PurpleMoonlight

13,602 posts

93 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Spanna said:
Can we ignore it though?
No doubt the politicians and pressure groups won't let us.



Paddy_N_Murphy

22,955 posts

120 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
biglaugh


the issue seems to have captured the hearts of the PH massive ....

Shuvi McTupya

21,431 posts

183 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
biglaugh


the issue seems to have captured the hearts of the PH massive ....
We already accept the three genders:
Male
Female
Hairdresser.

Lance Catamaran

19,288 posts

163 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Mark Benson said:
Spanna said:
It seems to me this is all just oppression olympics, who can get the most out of being 'marginalised.'
Pretty much my opinion. There undoubtedly are people who feel 'trapped in the wrong body' - I worked with one once, and (s)he was miserable, she saved every penny from work and had a series of operations to become what she is now, in mind and body a woman (at least to look at), but born a man.

But there are so many self-identifying 'non-binary' people screeching for attention these days that the genuine cases like the person I knew are themselves marginalised by the attention-seeking narcissists who've simultaneously brought the debate into the mainstream and cheapened it to be all about them.
Agreed. There are people who get born in the wrong in the wrong body, and they should get the mental and psychological help they need to either change or adapt. The problem is it's been hijacked by the Tumblr brigade (the phrase transtrender seems apt) and now you've got respected universities coming out with nonsense like people's gender identity can change from day to day, or things like this, where it just sounds like English isn't your first language


Spanna

Original Poster:

3,519 posts

112 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
Spanna said:
Can we ignore it though?
No doubt the politicians and pressure groups won't let us.
We're already there though. Ignoring it for the most part whilst it gains speed will make it difficult to stop eventually as people will be years behind the debate.

Credit to Piers Morgan, he did make their arguments look a bit silly and straw man. But if these views are beginning to gain ground they should be put out there to be seen and only then do these people have their views shut down by undeniable logic instead of just getting confirmation bias by their peers. Pushing it underground and ignoring just makes it boil under the surface.

Shuvi McTupya said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
biglaugh


the issue seems to have captured the hearts of the PH massive ....
We already accept the three genders:
Male
Female
Hairdresser.
I've driven both a TT and an MX-5 but I don't conform to the hairdresser gender. Sorry.

You'll also forgetting powerfully built company director. That's me thanks.


Derek Smith

32,054 posts

184 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
I can't see the problem. Call yourself whatever you want, including a title that does not reflect any gender at all.

I reckon we should have not differentiation with sex. It should be enshrined in law. You are a person and that's it. Anything else is superfluous. Do away with male, female, transgender and the rest of the nice differentiations. It's given enough problems in the past.



hyphen

8,236 posts

26 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Spanna said:
Piers Morgan was just this morning having a discussion with two gender non-conformists on Good Morning Britain.
Found the video online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzDR0_G5Yu4 (Non-Binary Gender Debate: Piers Morgan vs. Fox & Owl)

Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 17th May 09:37

Shuvi McTupya

21,431 posts

183 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Spanna said:
I've driven both a TT and an MX-5 but I don't conform to the hairdresser gender. Sorry.

You'll also forgetting powerfully built company director. That's me thanks.
Sorry but you are a Hairdresser with gender identity issues smile

feef

4,022 posts

119 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Spanna said:
How does this work with changing rooms? Can I now just use the women's and not be scrutinised?
I find that many newer facilities have larger cubicles and are used by both sexes. It seems to be especially common on mainland Europe and the Aquariaz in Avoriaz in France is one that springs to mind immediately and which I used relatively recently. Dry-side is a row of doors into the cubicles, the opposite wall of the cubicle is the door to the wet side and everyone uses whichever cubicle is vacant.

I don't see the fuss in that respect. Same with loos. Indeed, the temporary loos at the Rushden Cavalcade and other such events nail the optimal solution. Cubicles for everyone and urinals for those that want to use them.

motco

11,144 posts

182 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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My world collapsed when I found out that LGBT wasn't a sandwich filling! jester

thetoxicnerve

20,386 posts

113 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
So unisex toilets everywhere then Derek? Assuming all cubicle type then I guess there isn't a problem.

Personally, I think it's all bks and a fuss about nothing. I should clarify my thoughts:

  1. People's "legal status" should be limited to their birth / genetic sex - Physiological Identity
  2. People should be able to identify however they wish - Psychological identity
  3. People should be able to dress however they wish - Expression of identity
  4. People should be able to conduct relationships with whomever they wish as long as all parties are aware - upfront - about the genetic / birth gender of their partner(s) - Sexual Identity
Item 1 should hold true from the day a person is born until they die.

Items 2-4 are trickier, I would like to suggest they should only apply once people are over the age of 16 but not sure how you could do that. Children are going to be exposed to this stuff.

JagLover

24,102 posts

171 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
We should ignore it and focus on issues that matter.
This basically

The left is in danger of consigning itself to irrelevance by focusing on such "identity politics" rather than on issues that improve the lives of most of the population.



Goaty Bill 2

2,967 posts

55 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Mark Benson said:
Spanna said:
It seems to me this is all just oppression olympics, who can get the most out of being 'marginalised.'
Pretty much my opinion. There undoubtedly are people who feel 'trapped in the wrong body' - I worked with one once, and (s)he was miserable, she saved every penny from work and had a series of operations to become what she is now, in mind and body a woman (at least to look at), but born a man.

But there are so many self-identifying 'non-binary' people screeching for attention these days that the genuine cases like the person I knew are themselves marginalised by the attention-seeking narcissists who've simultaneously brought the debate into the mainstream and cheapened it to be all about them.
The early Peterson vs Matte interview.

To any sane person Matte has to be considered an idiot;
University of Toronto historian: Biological sex a ‘very popular misconception’

Matte said:
“biological sex” — that humans are born either male or female — is a “very popular misconception.”

“Basically, it’s not correct that there is such a thing as biological sex,” Mr. Matte said last month on “The Agenda,” a Canadian talk show, adding that “for over 50 years scientists have shown that that’s not true.”

“I don’t focus on pronouns, because pronouns are actually part of a cisnormative culture,” he said.

He defined “cisnormativity” as “basically the very popular idea and assumption that most people probably have, and definitely that our structures convey, that there is such a thing as male or female, that they connect to being a girl or a boy, a man or a woman.”
Worth noting that both Peterson and Matte are tenured at UoT.
Peterson was warned about his conduct and speech post this interview.
Nothing was said to Matte, in spite of the university having a biology department that does not support his view.

PurpleMoonlight said:
Spanna said:
Can we ignore it though?
No doubt the politicians and pressure groups won't let us.
What happens in north America has a disturbing habit of making it's way across the pond.
Skirts for boys at private Highgate School under plans for gender-neutral uniform

Dyfed-Powys Police uniforms may be made 'gender neutral'


ETA
Add link to interview/debate


Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Wednesday 17th May 10:07

feef

4,022 posts

119 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
thetoxicnerve said:
  1. People's "legal status" should be limited to their birth / genetic sex - Physiological Identity
So an individual who identifies as a woman, feels like a woman, has had surgery to make them, physiologically as much a woman as possible, and looks like a woman should be...

patted down or searched by a man at airport security because that individual was born a man?

Sent to a male prison in the event of a crime?

If chose to serve in the military, would share bunk rooms or other group accommodation with men?

That's what the legal status would refer to, no?