The Gender Non-binary debate.

The Gender Non-binary debate.

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Discussion

Noodle1982

1,367 posts

50 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...

gregs656

3,631 posts

125 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
andy_s said:
I'm still confused, it seems a logical fallacy; do you mean if you are a woman who is hyper-aggressive than you are more a man than a woman? [These are genuine questions].
No I don't mean that, no one means that.

I'm saying that it is typical in society for some men to be be perceived as more masculine than other men, some men to be perceived as more feminine than other men.

Some women to be perceived as more feminine than other women, and some women to be perceived as more masculine than other women.

Indeed there will be men who are perceived as more feminine than some women, and some women who are perceived as more masculine than some men.

So the ideals of masculinity and femininity are on a spectrum, there is cross over. Society is comfortable with this and there are a great many words that cover the various permutations.

Have a conversation about trans though and there is a tendency from some quarters to shut it down because men and women are totally binary and that's all there is to it.

andy_s

14,822 posts

203 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
gregs656 said:
andy_s said:
I'm still confused, it seems a logical fallacy; do you mean if you are a woman who is hyper-aggressive than you are more a man than a woman? [These are genuine questions].
No I don't mean that, no one means that.

I'm saying that it is typical in society for some men to be be perceived as more masculine than other men, some men to be perceived as more feminine than other men.

Some women to be perceived as more feminine than other women, and some women to be perceived as more masculine than other women.

Indeed there will be men who are perceived as more feminine than some women, and some women who are perceived as more masculine than some men.

So the ideals of masculinity and femininity are on a spectrum, there is cross over. Society is comfortable with this and there are a great many words that cover the various permutations.

Have a conversation about trans though and there is a tendency from some quarters to shut it down because men and women are totally binary and that's all there is to it.
Yeah.....maybe I'm being hard of thinking - I get all you've said, it's pretty much what I said, but I had the impression that somewhere someone said that gender isn't binary and it's on a scale; I understand that the sliding scale of multivariate traditionally associated characteristics are, but that - to me - doesn't mean the gender alters from male/female to some indeterminate point in between [if that's what you mean in your last sentence].


OK, maybe got it - you mean 'men can only be men and women can only be women because of common perception' and that common perception isn't right [ie a man can think he's a woman]? I get that.

bulldong

3,069 posts

147 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
rofl ffs

Clockwork Cupcake

60,889 posts

216 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
Even I think that's stupid.

bradders

854 posts

215 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
A transgender person is someone who identifies as the opposite gender, regardless of the clothes they are wearing. If they wear clothes that more closely match their gender identity then they are doing so because it is consistent with their gender identity. Not because they are dressing up.

A transsexual person is someone who wishes to transition to the opposite gender.
Hi CC. Hope you're well? What you've said here raises a few questions and I hope you don't mind sharing your perspective.

Is transsexual a subset of transgender? If a transsexual actually transitions (rather than wishing to transition), do they lose the trans label, from both transsexual and also transgender (if it is a subset)?

If gender is indeed non-binary, what does a transgender person believe is the opposite to which they identify? For example, if gender was a scale from 0 to 10, then would it be fair to assume a 0 identifies as a 10?

If so, what would a transgender 3 identify as, a 7? If a transgender person does identify as the opposite gender, how does that fit in a non-binary world?

g3org3y

13,781 posts

135 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
bulldong said:
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
rofl ffs
And just when you didn't think it could get better, a gem from the comments:

Janet Cannon said:
"Hole" Makes it sound like its just.. a hole.. rather than an actual, legitimate body part with a purpose. This is blatant misogyny.

Johnnytheboy

18,201 posts

130 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I will say this CC, if you truly do believe most of what you say on here and it’s all true, and if this is all what makes you comfortable and happy-fair play to you.

Just don’t expect a large proportion of the population to want to go along with this charade.
I was trying to find a way to phrase this yesterday on here but the above says this very well.

I am 100% relaxed about men dressing up as women or even having surgery to resemble women (and vice versa). I am 100% fine if they then want to call themselves women (and vice versa). After all, it doesn't affect me in the least.

What I am extremely uncomfortable about is feeling compelled by legal or societal pressure to pretend I think this means they have genuinely swapped sex when I don't believe it to be true.

Not because I any way want to prevent people living in a manner that makes them feel happier about themselves, but because I have this (perhaps irrational) dislike of being compelled to pretend to think something, just on principle. It has curiously totalitarian overtones, if that isn't an overly histrionic phrase.

If that makes me "transphobic" I'm "transphobic".

Quotation marks, as I faintly resent the depiction of not buying into someone else's agenda as a phobia.

If I'm scared of anything it's living in a society where my thoughts can be wrong.

Clockwork Cupcake

60,889 posts

216 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
Johnnytheboy said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I will say this CC, if you truly do believe most of what you say on here and it’s all true, and if this is all what makes you comfortable and happy-fair play to you.

Just don’t expect a large proportion of the population to want to go along with this charade.
I was trying to find a way to phrase this yesterday on here but the above says this very well.

I am 100% relaxed about men dressing up as women or even having surgery to resemble women (and vice versa). I am 100% fine if they then want to call themselves women (and vice versa). After all, it doesn't affect me in the least.

What I am extremely uncomfortable about is feeling compelled by legal or societal pressure to pretend I think this means they have genuinely swapped sex when I don't believe it to be true.

Not because I any way want to prevent people living in a manner that makes them feel happier about themselves, but because I have this (perhaps irrational) dislike of being compelled to pretend to think something, just on principle. It has curiously totalitarian overtones, if that isn't an overly histrionic phrase.

If that makes me "transphobic" I'm "transphobic".

Quotation marks, as I faintly resent the depiction of not buying into someone else's agenda as a phobia.

If I'm scared of anything it's living in a society where my thoughts can be wrong.
I kind of get where you are coming from, and I certainly value the sentiment of "live and let live". So, thanks on that.

Just as an aside though, on the subject of "phobia" you can thank the word "homophobia" for the word "transphobia". They're generally taken as meaning "aversion to" rather than specifically "fear of", though (edit: although it seems that hasn't always been the case). Really they ought to have "-ism" like "racism" and "sexism" but I guess that "homoism" didn't look right. And I guess "transphobia" kind of grew from "homophobia" (as a word, I mean) although one could certainly argue that "transism" might make more sense.

But I digress. smile


Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 6th December 22:01

bulldong

3,069 posts

147 months

Thursday 6th December 2018
quotequote all
g3org3y said:
bulldong said:
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
rofl ffs
And just when you didn't think it could get better, a gem from the comments:

Janet Cannon said:
"Hole" Makes it sound like its just.. a hole.. rather than an actual, legitimate body part with a purpose. This is blatant misogyny.
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.

Halb

48,652 posts

127 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
andy_s said:
Yeah I'm confused on this one; being a hyper aggressive* woman doesn't make her a man, nor does a 'man' in a woman's body mean he/she's hyper-aggressive*, nor necessarily to want to be a man if they're a woman, [*Insert any other differentiating metric].

As I think about it, it's a little like saying if a boy likes ballet then he's homosexual, something anathema today (thank goodness)

I don't see this as a spectrum of gender, but more a spectrum of character traits that may be associated with gender by society [and by statistics]. confused

Edited by andy_s on Thursday 6th December 19:15
LIke stud/slut, the same thing, but some people think one is worse than the other.

Noodle1982

1,367 posts

50 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
bulldong said:
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.
Quoted directly from the healthonline safe sex guide.

'In this guide, whenever we use the medical term “vagina,” we’ll also include “front hole” as clinically recommended by researchers in the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth journal.'

https://www.healthline.com/health/lgbtqia-safe-sex...

bulldong

3,069 posts

147 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
bulldong said:
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.
Quoted directly from the healthonline safe sex guide.

'In this guide, whenever we use the medical term “vagina,” we’ll also include “front hole” as clinically recommended by researchers in the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth journal.'

https://www.healthline.com/health/lgbtqia-safe-sex...
fk me. Ok. I mainly thought it was fake news because the couldron website is a right wing Christian blog, so it could have been taken out of context and rehashed to make a funny piece of satire.

8.4L 154

4,639 posts

197 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
bulldong said:
Noodle1982 said:
bulldong said:
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.
Quoted directly from the healthonline safe sex guide.

'In this guide, whenever we use the medical term “vagina,” we’ll also include “front hole” as clinically recommended by researchers in the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth journal.'

https://www.healthline.com/health/lgbtqia-safe-sex...
fk me. Ok. I mainly thought it was fake news because the couldron website is a right wing Christian blog, so it could have been taken out of context and rehashed to make a funny piece of satire.
Given the title of the article "LGBTQIA Safe Sex Guide" which is targeted at trans and non binary people (which for those at the back includes trans men) and when used, both terms are used, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Noodle1982

1,367 posts

50 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
Given the title of the article "LGBTQIA Safe Sex Guide" which is targeted at trans and non binary people (which for those at the back includes trans men) and when used, both terms are used, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
Its ridiculous.

If you get triggered by the word vagina, which is one of the reasons for the term front hole, then you need psychiatric help. Wether trans or not.

I had an ex girlfriend who referred to her vagina as Dave. fking Dave! (Quite literally!)

When I told her I didn't really like getting text messages along the lines of....'dave can't wait for some attention this weekend' etc she would go in a strop.

Needless to say the relationship didn't last and she turned out to have numerous mental and psychological issues.







8.4L 154

4,639 posts

197 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
8.4L 154 said:
Given the title of the article "LGBTQIA Safe Sex Guide" which is targeted at trans and non binary people (which for those at the back includes trans men) and when used, both terms are used, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
Its ridiculous.

If you get triggered by the word vagina, which is one of the reasons for the term front hole, then you need psychiatric help. Wether trans or not.

I had an ex girlfriend who referred to her vagina as Dave. fking Dave! (Quite literally!)

When I told her I didn't really like getting text messages along the lines of....'dave can't wait for some attention this weekend' etc she would go in a strop.

Needless to say the relationship didn't last and she turned out to have numerous mental and psychological issues.
It seems there are more cis people being triggered by "front hole" in an article they are not the target audience for than trans people who are slightly more comfortable with inclusive language in an article written for them.

I very much doubt any trans men would have the same visceral reaction we are seeing from cis folks had vagina been the only word used.

Noodle1982

1,367 posts

50 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
It seems there are more cis people being triggered by "front hole" in an article they are not the target audience for than trans people who are slightly more comfortable with inclusive language in an article written for them.

I very much doubt any trans men would have the same visceral reaction we are seeing from cis folks had vagina been the only word used.
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.

AshVX220

3,976 posts

134 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
8.4L 154 said:
It seems there are more cis people being triggered by "front hole" in an article they are not the target audience for than trans people who are slightly more comfortable with inclusive language in an article written for them.

I very much doubt any trans men would have the same visceral reaction we are seeing from cis folks had vagina been the only word used.
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.
Indeed, even CC above said it was ridiculous.

8.4L 154

4,639 posts

197 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.
All i see is an opinion piece in a "politically and theologically conservative website" about a LGBTQIA health article. No trans voices.

Clockwork Cupcake

60,889 posts

216 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
AshVX220 said:
Indeed, even CC above said it was ridiculous.
It's just an opinion - I'm not an authority or anything. Maybe that's how its referred to in some circles? Every group has its own jargon, terms, and words. As car enthusiasts we are just as guilty. So, who knows?

Certainly, next time I want to insult someone I might now be inclined to call them a front hole rather than an ahole. biggrin