The Gender Non-binary debate.

The Gender Non-binary debate.

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Discussion

8.4L 154

4,644 posts

198 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
AshVX220 said:
Indeed, even CC above said it was ridiculous.
It's just an opinion - I'm not an authority or anything. Maybe that's how its referred to in some circles? Every group has its own jargon, terms, and words. As car enthusiasts we are just as guilty. So, who knows?

Certainly, next time I want to insult someone I might now be inclined to call them a front hole rather than an ahole. biggrin
To be honest i wasn't that impressed initially, I thought it was just another trolling post by Noodle1982 given they have form of posting incendiary articles with no comment or connection to the current thread focus. Given they then went on to pour petrol onto the fire with inflammatory language rather confirms the trolling theory.

For the record, had "front hole" been found in an article on child birth on NHS choices website then i would find it not necessary or appropriate. Finding it on an LGBTQIA Sexual health article and used alongside vagina, not so much.

Noodle1982

1,390 posts

51 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
Noodle1982 said:
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.
All i see is an opinion piece in a "politically and theologically conservative website" about a LGBTQIA health article. No trans voices.
I also posted the healthine (which is definitely not a conservative website or company) link which discusses in depth the survey that they carried out.

Another gem in that survey is chestfeeding.

I can't help but think that people's quest for inclusion is causing more divide than ever before.

Noodle1982

1,390 posts

51 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
To be honest i wasn't that impressed initially, I thought it was just another trolling post by Noodle1982 given they have form of posting incendiary articles with no comment or connection to the current thread focus. Given they then went on to pour petrol onto the fire with inflammatory language rather confirms the trolling theory.
Absolute bks.

I have not once used inflammatory language in this thread nor have I trolled this thread.



Clockwork Cupcake

61,158 posts

217 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
I have not once used inflammatory language in this thread nor have I trolled this thread.
I think the suggestion was that you like to stir things up, and pour petrol on the fire, rather than your language being inflammatory.

And, come on, you do rather like to provoke don't you? wink


Halb

49,095 posts

128 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Certainly, next time I want to insult someone I might now be inclined to call them a front hole rather than an ahole. biggrin
It'd be allowed before the watershed, could use it on Politics LIve!

Noodle1982

1,390 posts

51 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Noodle1982 said:
I have not once used inflammatory language in this thread nor have I trolled this thread.
I think the suggestion was that you like to stir things up, and pour petrol on the fire, rather than your language being inflammatory.

And, come on, you do rather like to provoke don't you? wink
Are you reading the same posts as I am? 8.4l clearly stated that I have used inflammatory language, which I have not. In other threads I am guilty of this but certainly not in this one.

As for provoking, I don't see any problem with the questions I ask. It's not every day, certainly not where I live anyway, where you get an actual transgender person answering your questions regardless of how provoking they are so why not make the most of it and ask certain things that others wouldn't dare to in a real life setting.





Androgynous

185 posts

18 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
Noodle1982 said:
8.4L 154 said:
Given the title of the article "LGBTQIA Safe Sex Guide" which is targeted at trans and non binary people (which for those at the back includes trans men) and when used, both terms are used, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
Its ridiculous.

If you get triggered by the word vagina, which is one of the reasons for the term front hole, then you need psychiatric help. Wether trans or not.

I had an ex girlfriend who referred to her vagina as Dave. fking Dave! (Quite literally!)

When I told her I didn't really like getting text messages along the lines of....'dave can't wait for some attention this weekend' etc she would go in a strop.

Needless to say the relationship didn't last and she turned out to have numerous mental and psychological issues.
It seems there are more cis people being triggered by "front hole" in an article they are not the target audience for than trans people who are slightly more comfortable with inclusive language in an article written for them.

I very much doubt any trans men would have the same visceral reaction we are seeing from cis folks had vagina been the only word used.
I never use the word cis when talking to non-trans people, it feels a bit antagonistic.

Johnnytheboy

18,314 posts

131 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Androgynous said:
I never use the word cis when talking to non-trans people, it feels a bit antagonistic.
There was a trans woman on Woman's Hour last Monday (29th I think?) who managed to get themselves completely tied up in knots explaining 'cis' to the presenter. They ended up getting a bit snotty about it.


Clockwork Cupcake

61,158 posts

217 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
We've been through the whole 'cis' word thing earlier in the thread at tedious length.

I think we concluded that it is on the whole not needed unless relevant. eg. white woman, black woman, Chinese woman, disabled woman, cis woman, trans woman. It's a modifier that only has relevance when there is a need to distinguish.


xjay1337

12,600 posts

63 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
We've been through the whole 'cis' word thing earlier in the thread at tedious length.

I think we concluded that it is on the whole not needed unless relevant. eg. white woman, black woman, Chinese woman, disabled woman, cis woman, trans woman. It's a modifier that only has relevance when there is a need to distinguish.
Woperson.

Noodle1982

1,390 posts

51 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
black woman,
Bloody Nora! You can't be using terms like that! It's 2018 not 2017.

These days it's person of colour.

On a more serious note though I was surprised to find out that 'queer' is now an accepted term where as years ago it was seen as an insult.

Johnnytheboy

18,314 posts

131 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
On a more serious note though I was surprised to find out that 'queer' is now an accepted term where as years ago it was seen as an insult.
It's been "reclaimed". In other words in the wonderful, age of identity politics queer people can use the word. But non queer people aren't allowed to.

rover 623gsi

3,206 posts

106 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
We've been through the whole 'cis' word thing earlier in the thread at tedious length.

I think we concluded that it is on the whole not needed unless relevant. eg. white woman, black woman, Chinese woman, disabled woman, cis woman, trans woman. It's a modifier that only has relevance when there is a need to distinguish.
You may have concluded it but I don’t believe everyone else has. I struggle to conceive of any situation in which the term ‘cis’ has any relevance. A ‘non trans woman’ is simply a ‘woman’. There is no need to modify, qualify or amend the word, woman.

otolith

38,487 posts

149 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
rover 623gsi said:
I struggle to conceive of any situation in which the term ‘cis’ has any relevance. A ‘non trans woman’ is simply a ‘woman’. There is no need to modify, qualify or amend the word, woman.
But if you are honest that's because in your opinion a "trans woman" is simply a "man", so you don't need either qualifier.

Clockwork Cupcake

61,158 posts

217 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Johnnytheboy said:
It's been "reclaimed". In other words in the wonderful, age of identity politics queer people can use the word. But non queer people aren't allowed to.
Are you a bit peeved that you can't used the word black people have reclaimed for themselves too? wink



Johnnytheboy

18,314 posts

131 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Johnnytheboy said:
It's been "reclaimed". In other words in the wonderful, age of identity politics queer people can use the word. But non queer people aren't allowed to.
Are you a bit peeved that you can't used the word black people have reclaimed for themselves too? wink
I don't really want to use rude words at all. But (back to my previous free speech comment) I do think everyone should be allowed to say anything.

Clockwork Cupcake

61,158 posts

217 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Personally, I don't think it is acceptable to refer to a person as a queer, but making reference to queerness is fine, as the word has now moved back to meaning "differentness" within the LGBT+ community.

As with many things, it's down to intent and context.


_dobbo_

11,412 posts

193 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
I can't help but think that people's quest for inclusion is causing more divide than ever before.
This is because you want the world to be divided because it suits your POV.


gregs656

3,788 posts

126 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
On a more serious note though I was surprised to find out that 'queer' is now an accepted term where as years ago it was seen as an insult.
The claiming of queer is kind of interesting - I think it has started to become a catch all term - the communities own response to the general fatigue of having masses of terminology, acronyms and so on.

Noodle1982

1,390 posts

51 months

Friday 7th December 2018
quotequote all
_dobbo_ said:
Noodle1982 said:
I can't help but think that people's quest for inclusion is causing more divide than ever before.
This is because you want the world to be divided because it suits your POV.
Stop talking nonsense.

Apart from eradicating animal cruelty there's is nothing in the world I'd like more than for everyone to get along and be accepted by all.