The Gender Non-binary debate.

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Discussion

bulldong

2,941 posts

139 months

Thursday 6th December
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
rofl ffs

Clockwork Cupcake

57,831 posts

208 months

Thursday 6th December
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
Even I think that's stupid.

bradders

843 posts

207 months

Thursday 6th December
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
A transgender person is someone who identifies as the opposite gender, regardless of the clothes they are wearing. If they wear clothes that more closely match their gender identity then they are doing so because it is consistent with their gender identity. Not because they are dressing up.

A transsexual person is someone who wishes to transition to the opposite gender.
Hi CC. Hope you're well? What you've said here raises a few questions and I hope you don't mind sharing your perspective.

Is transsexual a subset of transgender? If a transsexual actually transitions (rather than wishing to transition), do they lose the trans label, from both transsexual and also transgender (if it is a subset)?

If gender is indeed non-binary, what does a transgender person believe is the opposite to which they identify? For example, if gender was a scale from 0 to 10, then would it be fair to assume a 0 identifies as a 10?

If so, what would a transgender 3 identify as, a 7? If a transgender person does identify as the opposite gender, how does that fit in a non-binary world?

g3org3y

12,808 posts

127 months

Thursday 6th December
quotequote all
bulldong said:
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
rofl ffs
And just when you didn't think it could get better, a gem from the comments:

Janet Cannon said:
"Hole" Makes it sound like its just.. a hole.. rather than an actual, legitimate body part with a purpose. This is blatant misogyny.

Johnnytheboy

17,035 posts

122 months

Thursday 6th December
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I will say this CC, if you truly do believe most of what you say on here and it’s all true, and if this is all what makes you comfortable and happy-fair play to you.

Just don’t expect a large proportion of the population to want to go along with this charade.
I was trying to find a way to phrase this yesterday on here but the above says this very well.

I am 100% relaxed about men dressing up as women or even having surgery to resemble women (and vice versa). I am 100% fine if they then want to call themselves women (and vice versa). After all, it doesn't affect me in the least.

What I am extremely uncomfortable about is feeling compelled by legal or societal pressure to pretend I think this means they have genuinely swapped sex when I don't believe it to be true.

Not because I any way want to prevent people living in a manner that makes them feel happier about themselves, but because I have this (perhaps irrational) dislike of being compelled to pretend to think something, just on principle. It has curiously totalitarian overtones, if that isn't an overly histrionic phrase.

If that makes me "transphobic" I'm "transphobic".

Quotation marks, as I faintly resent the depiction of not buying into someone else's agenda as a phobia.

If I'm scared of anything it's living in a society where my thoughts can be wrong.
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Clockwork Cupcake

57,831 posts

208 months

Thursday 6th December
quotequote all
Johnnytheboy said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I will say this CC, if you truly do believe most of what you say on here and it’s all true, and if this is all what makes you comfortable and happy-fair play to you.

Just don’t expect a large proportion of the population to want to go along with this charade.
I was trying to find a way to phrase this yesterday on here but the above says this very well.

I am 100% relaxed about men dressing up as women or even having surgery to resemble women (and vice versa). I am 100% fine if they then want to call themselves women (and vice versa). After all, it doesn't affect me in the least.

What I am extremely uncomfortable about is feeling compelled by legal or societal pressure to pretend I think this means they have genuinely swapped sex when I don't believe it to be true.

Not because I any way want to prevent people living in a manner that makes them feel happier about themselves, but because I have this (perhaps irrational) dislike of being compelled to pretend to think something, just on principle. It has curiously totalitarian overtones, if that isn't an overly histrionic phrase.

If that makes me "transphobic" I'm "transphobic".

Quotation marks, as I faintly resent the depiction of not buying into someone else's agenda as a phobia.

If I'm scared of anything it's living in a society where my thoughts can be wrong.
I kind of get where you are coming from, and I certainly value the sentiment of "live and let live". So, thanks on that.

Just as an aside though, on the subject of "phobia" you can thank the word "homophobia" for the word "transphobia". They're generally taken as meaning "aversion to" rather than specifically "fear of", though (edit: although it seems that hasn't always been the case). Really they ought to have "-ism" like "racism" and "sexism" but I guess that "homoism" didn't look right. And I guess "transphobia" kind of grew from "homophobia" (as a word, I mean) although one could certainly argue that "transism" might make more sense.

But I digress. smile


Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 6th December 22:01

bulldong

2,941 posts

139 months

Thursday 6th December
quotequote all
g3org3y said:
bulldong said:
Noodle1982 said:
Apparently the term vagina isn't gender inclusive so what better term to use than 'front hole'

http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-m...
rofl ffs
And just when you didn't think it could get better, a gem from the comments:

Janet Cannon said:
"Hole" Makes it sound like its just.. a hole.. rather than an actual, legitimate body part with a purpose. This is blatant misogyny.
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.

Halb

44,551 posts

119 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
andy_s said:
Yeah I'm confused on this one; being a hyper aggressive* woman doesn't make her a man, nor does a 'man' in a woman's body mean he/she's hyper-aggressive*, nor necessarily to want to be a man if they're a woman, [*Insert any other differentiating metric].

As I think about it, it's a little like saying if a boy likes ballet then he's homosexual, something anathema today (thank goodness)

I don't see this as a spectrum of gender, but more a spectrum of character traits that may be associated with gender by society [and by statistics]. confused

Edited by andy_s on Thursday 6th December 19:15
LIke stud/slut, the same thing, but some people think one is worse than the other.

Noodle1982

719 posts

42 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
bulldong said:
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.
Quoted directly from the healthonline safe sex guide.

'In this guide, whenever we use the medical term “vagina,” we’ll also include “front hole” as clinically recommended by researchers in the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth journal.'

https://www.healthline.com/health/lgbtqia-safe-sex...

bulldong

2,941 posts

139 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
bulldong said:
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.
Quoted directly from the healthonline safe sex guide.

'In this guide, whenever we use the medical term “vagina,” we’ll also include “front hole” as clinically recommended by researchers in the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth journal.'

https://www.healthline.com/health/lgbtqia-safe-sex...
fk me. Ok. I mainly thought it was fake news because the couldron website is a right wing Christian blog, so it could have been taken out of context and rehashed to make a funny piece of satire.

8.4L 154

4,381 posts

189 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
bulldong said:
Noodle1982 said:
bulldong said:
Following further research, I’m pretty sure it’s fake news.
Quoted directly from the healthonline safe sex guide.

'In this guide, whenever we use the medical term “vagina,” we’ll also include “front hole” as clinically recommended by researchers in the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth journal.'

https://www.healthline.com/health/lgbtqia-safe-sex...
fk me. Ok. I mainly thought it was fake news because the couldron website is a right wing Christian blog, so it could have been taken out of context and rehashed to make a funny piece of satire.
Given the title of the article "LGBTQIA Safe Sex Guide" which is targeted at trans and non binary people (which for those at the back includes trans men) and when used, both terms are used, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Noodle1982

719 posts

42 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
Given the title of the article "LGBTQIA Safe Sex Guide" which is targeted at trans and non binary people (which for those at the back includes trans men) and when used, both terms are used, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
Its ridiculous.

If you get triggered by the word vagina, which is one of the reasons for the term front hole, then you need psychiatric help. Wether trans or not.

I had an ex girlfriend who referred to her vagina as Dave. fking Dave! (Quite literally!)

When I told her I didn't really like getting text messages along the lines of....'dave can't wait for some attention this weekend' etc she would go in a strop.

Needless to say the relationship didn't last and she turned out to have numerous mental and psychological issues.







8.4L 154

4,381 posts

189 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
8.4L 154 said:
Given the title of the article "LGBTQIA Safe Sex Guide" which is targeted at trans and non binary people (which for those at the back includes trans men) and when used, both terms are used, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
Its ridiculous.

If you get triggered by the word vagina, which is one of the reasons for the term front hole, then you need psychiatric help. Wether trans or not.

I had an ex girlfriend who referred to her vagina as Dave. fking Dave! (Quite literally!)

When I told her I didn't really like getting text messages along the lines of....'dave can't wait for some attention this weekend' etc she would go in a strop.

Needless to say the relationship didn't last and she turned out to have numerous mental and psychological issues.
It seems there are more cis people being triggered by "front hole" in an article they are not the target audience for than trans people who are slightly more comfortable with inclusive language in an article written for them.

I very much doubt any trans men would have the same visceral reaction we are seeing from cis folks had vagina been the only word used.

Noodle1982

719 posts

42 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
It seems there are more cis people being triggered by "front hole" in an article they are not the target audience for than trans people who are slightly more comfortable with inclusive language in an article written for them.

I very much doubt any trans men would have the same visceral reaction we are seeing from cis folks had vagina been the only word used.
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.

AshVX220

3,292 posts

126 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
8.4L 154 said:
It seems there are more cis people being triggered by "front hole" in an article they are not the target audience for than trans people who are slightly more comfortable with inclusive language in an article written for them.

I very much doubt any trans men would have the same visceral reaction we are seeing from cis folks had vagina been the only word used.
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.
Indeed, even CC above said it was ridiculous.

8.4L 154

4,381 posts

189 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Noodle1982 said:
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.
All i see is an opinion piece in a "politically and theologically conservative website" about a LGBTQIA health article. No trans voices.

Clockwork Cupcake

57,831 posts

208 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
AshVX220 said:
Indeed, even CC above said it was ridiculous.
It's just an opinion - I'm not an authority or anything. Maybe that's how its referred to in some circles? Every group has its own jargon, terms, and words. As car enthusiasts we are just as guilty. So, who knows?

Certainly, next time I want to insult someone I might now be inclined to call them a front hole rather than an ahole. biggrin


8.4L 154

4,381 posts

189 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
AshVX220 said:
Indeed, even CC above said it was ridiculous.
It's just an opinion - I'm not an authority or anything. Maybe that's how its referred to in some circles? Every group has its own jargon, terms, and words. As car enthusiasts we are just as guilty. So, who knows?

Certainly, next time I want to insult someone I might now be inclined to call them a front hole rather than an ahole. biggrin
To be honest i wasn't that impressed initially, I thought it was just another trolling post by Noodle1982 given they have form of posting incendiary articles with no comment or connection to the current thread focus. Given they then went on to pour petrol onto the fire with inflammatory language rather confirms the trolling theory.

For the record, had "front hole" been found in an article on child birth on NHS choices website then i would find it not necessary or appropriate. Finding it on an LGBTQIA Sexual health article and used alongside vagina, not so much.

Noodle1982

719 posts

42 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
Noodle1982 said:
You obviously haven't read the article then considering all the trans people surveyed for it were trans men.
All i see is an opinion piece in a "politically and theologically conservative website" about a LGBTQIA health article. No trans voices.
I also posted the healthine (which is definitely not a conservative website or company) link which discusses in depth the survey that they carried out.

Another gem in that survey is chestfeeding.

I can't help but think that people's quest for inclusion is causing more divide than ever before.

Noodle1982

719 posts

42 months

Friday 7th December
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
To be honest i wasn't that impressed initially, I thought it was just another trolling post by Noodle1982 given they have form of posting incendiary articles with no comment or connection to the current thread focus. Given they then went on to pour petrol onto the fire with inflammatory language rather confirms the trolling theory.
Absolute bks.

I have not once used inflammatory language in this thread nor have I trolled this thread.