The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
WorldBoss said:
Given the fact that everybody, cis, trans or agender experiences, understands and expresses gender slightly differently, how are trans people 'Not the same' as a cis person, when everyone will have totally different concepts as to what it means to be their gender?
And when does this difference occur?
A transgender man is not the same as a cisgender man, one was born a man, the other is a woman who identifies as a man.And when does this difference occur?
Clockwork Cupcake said:
This article is a year old now, but it just popped up on my Facebook "memories" as I posted it a year ago on my Facebook wall.
https://tomsimsblog.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/what-...
There are some interesting points made, not least how a lot of the anti-trans rhetoric we see at the moment closely mirrors the anti-gay rhetoric of 30 years ago.
I particularly liked the comparison with left-handedness, and how the reason more people are left-handed these days is "not because more people have become naturally left handed, [nor] because being left handed has become cool. It’s because we’ve stopped beating children in school and forcing them to write with their right hand"
I only managed the first sentence. "The fight for transgender rights is an urgent battle against what some have called the last bastion of socially acceptable bigotry" and gave up.https://tomsimsblog.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/what-...
There are some interesting points made, not least how a lot of the anti-trans rhetoric we see at the moment closely mirrors the anti-gay rhetoric of 30 years ago.
I particularly liked the comparison with left-handedness, and how the reason more people are left-handed these days is "not because more people have become naturally left handed, [nor] because being left handed has become cool. It’s because we’ve stopped beating children in school and forcing them to write with their right hand"
It just shows some people live in a bubble. Many people have their own fights with society. There are many things treated as badly and worse than those discussed.
Imagine having a stutter. Seems trivial on the face of it.
The national broadcaster still highly rates and often repeats a sitcoms where the key joke running through the show is someone with a stutter. Imagine if Arkwright was transgender? Do you still think it would get the love it gets?
Imagine if you get taxed too much this month and need to phone the tax office to get it resolved. Phones are not good. What else do I do?
Have you ever visited your GP and had the receptionist laugh out loud at you in front of 20+ people in the waiting room?
I'm sure you might avoid many shops/establishments through fear of being treated badly. Guess what? Many other people do as well for many different reasons. I choose pubs based on whether the beers they serve have names I'm less likely to struggle with?
I'm not trying to dismiss your struggles. Quoting an article with such a closed minded opening does you no favours though.
alock said:
I only managed the first sentence. "The fight for transgender rights is an urgent battle against what some have called the last bastion of socially acceptable bigotry" and gave up.
Well, that's a shame because it's a well-written and thoughtful article. In the spirit of this, I'll not bother to read the rest of your post then.
j_4m said:
WorldBoss said:
Given the fact that everybody, cis, trans or agender experiences, understands and expresses gender slightly differently, how are trans people 'Not the same' as a cis person, when everyone will have totally different concepts as to what it means to be their gender?
And when does this difference occur?
A transgender man is not the same as a cisgender man, one was born a man, the other is a woman who identifies as a man.And when does this difference occur?
As a thought exercise. Is a transman still not a not a man in your opinion if:
They were born with ambiguous genitalia and were incorrectly assigned and brought up as female (as per David Reimer)?
Or
They was free to choose their gender expressions from their earliest days and gravitated towards masculinity, were brought up and socialized entirely as male, never went through through female puberty and had gender confirmation surgery at the earliest possible opportunity. Are they still a female even though they would have lived their entire life as a bloke?
Its funny, because I could KIND of see where you were coming from when you said that there could be some differences. Missing out on some traditional aspects of biological and social development of their gender is a sad fact that most trans people have to deal with and mourn in their own way and may create some differences unique to a trans person experiencing their given gender in comparison to comparing cis people and their understanding of gender.
I don't think it in itself shouldn't entirely be seen as a bad thing; as it allows trans people to often have a far better understanding of the meaning of their gender and appreciation of it by having the perspective of living a life of a gender that is for them, wrong. Differing experiences of all levels, good or bad is what makes everyone unique. It certainly doesn't stop someone being anymore or less their gender though
.It doesn't help that the often rhetoric by some people who may even be somewhat accepting of trans people, don't want the information of the existence of transgender people available to young children. This prolongs the damage and creates many of the differences that I speak of. A trans girl that has the knowledge and confidence to tell someone that something ain't quite right being called a boy at 4, is likely going to be happier and more well adjusted to the world than a trans woman having her egg crack at 54. Longer time of socialization as their gender, less experience of and mental damage done by dysphoria and no wrong puberty to correct.
But then this kind of highlights my thoughts about differences between Trans and Cis people across the same gender; Most will have been created out of gender dysphoria, and little else. The other variations will be just as board and random as you'd find between cis people.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 9th February 20:44
alock said:
I only managed the first sentence. "The fight for transgender rights is an urgent battle against what some have called the last bastion of socially acceptable bigotry" and gave up.
It just shows some people live in a bubble. Many people have their own fights with society. There are many things treated as badly and worse than those discussed.
Imagine having a stutter. Seems trivial on the face of it.
The national broadcaster still highly rates and often repeats a sitcoms where the key joke running through the show is someone with a stutter. Imagine if Arkwright was transgender? Do you still think it would get the love it gets?
Imagine if you get taxed too much this month and need to phone the tax office to get it resolved. Phones are not good. What else do I do?
Have you ever visited your GP and had the receptionist laugh out loud at you in front of 20+ people in the waiting room?
I'm sure you might avoid many shops/establishments through fear of being treated badly. Guess what? Many other people do as well for many different reasons. I choose pubs based on whether the beers they serve have names I'm less likely to struggle with?
I'm not trying to dismiss your struggles. Quoting an article with such a closed minded opening does you no favours though.
Bigotry (like so much in this life It just shows some people live in a bubble. Many people have their own fights with society. There are many things treated as badly and worse than those discussed.
Imagine having a stutter. Seems trivial on the face of it.
The national broadcaster still highly rates and often repeats a sitcoms where the key joke running through the show is someone with a stutter. Imagine if Arkwright was transgender? Do you still think it would get the love it gets?
Imagine if you get taxed too much this month and need to phone the tax office to get it resolved. Phones are not good. What else do I do?
Have you ever visited your GP and had the receptionist laugh out loud at you in front of 20+ people in the waiting room?
I'm sure you might avoid many shops/establishments through fear of being treated badly. Guess what? Many other people do as well for many different reasons. I choose pubs based on whether the beers they serve have names I'm less likely to struggle with?
I'm not trying to dismiss your struggles. Quoting an article with such a closed minded opening does you no favours though.
) is a spectrum, and while I don't want to offend you, I do not know your struggles and cannot walk in your shoes, I think having a non visible disability like a stutter is a little bit different from being transgender.I think I can come at this as a different angle.
I am black. I was assigned a white sounding name, and despite being raised on a South London council estate, have a posh sounding voice.
Have you ever rocked up to a job interview and literally see someone's face drop when they realize that your are not white?
Sod not going into a pub because you can't pronounce the name of beers, how about totally avoiding complete areas and sometimes entire towns because of side-wards glances?
What about having a racist depiction of your race used as a mascot on food products seen across the country that was stopped only fairly recently (and is something that some people to THIS DAY, still moan about)?
Have you been regularly stopped and searched and treated like garbage by every member of the police you have ever had the misfortune to come across because 'You match the description of a drug dealer'? Or are cannabis swab tested on EVERY traffic stop?
Racism is alive and well. Let me assure you of that, but the thing is, many brave and courageous people of many have managed to fight many of the battles and struggles before me. Things that were said and done to my parents before me are totally inconceivable to me, to the point where it seems alien that they would go through that sort of thing of a daily basis just a few years ago just for being black.
I also happen to be trans, and let me be honest. Being visibly trans scares me so, so, so much more than being black ever has, because I expect to go through that sort of treatment, and worse, coupled with my ethnicity. Trans Trailblazing on a widely seen level is only just beginning, and bigotry doesn't even have to be masked particularly well.
Negative things about trans people and gender are all over the media. Otherwise 'open minded' people will say the most god awful, ill-informed and horrific things about trans people and know that the majority of people probably won't pull them up on it. I HOPE its a matter of mis-education and that this perception will ultimately change (although like racism, won't die completely), but only time will tell, and in the meantime trans people have to deal daily with some of the s
t you see posted in this very thread.Its not a competition. Its about making the world a vaguely happier, more accepting place to live in.
WorldBoss said:
Its not a competition. Its about making the world a vaguely happier, more accepting place to live in.
I wanted to quote the whole of your post, but cut it down to just this, because that is the kernel of it. But that doesn't mean I discount the rest of it - it was a superb post. I can't even begin to imagine what you have to put up with - a double dose of prejudice.
But you are right - the world (or, at least, the UK) is a better place for us now than for the generations before us. Attitudes have changed - but only because people have made a stand for change. The trail blazers that you mention.
If everyone just sucked it up, we'd still have comedians doing acts like Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning did at their worst.
Raising awareness and challenging intolerance is not popular, especially to those who don't see what all the fuss is about because they are not the target of it. Some people will never be swayed, of course, but for those who are unaware or ignorant then making them aware and informed is not such a terrible thing, I feel.
WorldBoss said:
Post
Sorry, phoneposting from an airport so quote snipping is a pain.With your first example I think intersex people are a unique situation, and quite a rare one. All bets are off on that one. With your second example we need to elaborate more; are we stopping the child from going through a regular puberty artificially or is there a hormonal problem here? If the latter then it’s the same as an intersex person; this is a unique situation. The former, I don’t think we should be messing with childrens’ endocrine systems.
I think the experience of being a transwoman is going to he fundamentally different from hat of being a cisgender woman. As an example one is going to go through the experience of getting their first period which is going to have a formative effect on the mind. I do believe our corporeal experiences feedback and influence how our minds work, that given our biology is going to affect our internal perception of ourselves.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Quite.
And a middle class heterosexual white guy is going to have a different experience of maleness than a black gay guy growing up in a rough part of London.
True. The black guy is expected not to do well at school so is written off by teachers, though there is an exception to the rule in West African children where home life is more structured, and are expected, in some cases demanded to do well, or mum and dad will remove them from the sub par Academy down the road and send them back home for their education. They will still aim for jobs in accountancy, or the medical profession or IT. In contrast, a young black guy in Walthamstow or Croydon for example who's mum is working two jobs to cover bills and who's dad has long since left the scene, will be promised the lure of easy money (usually begins with latest trainers or clothes) if they do a favour for said guy wearing the gold chain, to take a package to someone, and so they fall into the gang or drug "career".And a middle class heterosexual white guy is going to have a different experience of maleness than a black gay guy growing up in a rough part of London.
Working class white guys would still graft and get a regular job, ie electrical, plumbing, window cleaning or any other sort of trade, as generally mum and dad expect that of him. Middle class kids are generally expected to get a good career as well. Maleness varies... I wasn't so interested by football but still love cars, electronics, and basketball for instance. Going down the pub has no real interest to me, culturally but still have the same interests as most blokes. Providing for family (wife plus 3 daughters) means working hard in my job. We are both in professional careers.
For working class families, issues of gender are less likely due to inevitable ridicule from peers, whereas the more money one has or other influences such as perhaps social media (the likes of Tumblr, Pinterest, etc) may have an impact on more impressionable kids. Inevitable bullying affects those who don't fit in with regular 'maleness', despite media efforts to normalize or encourage an alternative lifestyle.
It is truly appalling that scarce police resources are wasted on satisfying the hurty feelings of trannies who spend too much time on the internet when so many actual crimes are never satisfactorily investigated.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687123/M...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687123/M...
Dromedary66 said:
It is truly appalling that scarce police resources are wasted on satisfying the hurty feelings of trannies who spend too much time on the internet when so many actual crimes are never satisfactorily investigated.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687123/M...
She sounds like a right https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687123/M...
who bought it upon herself TBH.George Smiley said:
So you think arrest and detention is an appropriate response?
To a hate aggravated harassment case where the harasser refused to answer questions and assist police with their enquiries, Yeah I think so.PS harassment is a crime and being transgender is a protected characteristic for it being qualified as a hate crime if motivated as such.
George Smiley said:
So you think arrest and detention is an appropriate response?
I think in certain circumstances it is, but not always, it depends.You're getting what sounds like quite a bit of history condensed into a couple of paragraphs of "Poor lady gets it wrong and gets arrested".
I'd suggest there's going to be a lot more to it than that.
descentia said:
Oh no not the think of the children argument again. In the same way as education about gay people hasn't turned no gay children to same sex attraction the only ones who are going to given puberty blockers will be the ones who are under medical supervision for a long time.
The decision to go down the route is not taken lightly and in no way an instant access thing as there are years of counselling and assessment and that's after finally getting onto the specialist clinics books. The waiting time just for an initial appointment to be considered being taken on by the one of these clinics is over a year then there's a further delay to the next step.
As for the experience of periods and that as an indication of eligibility to be a woman you're forgetting the women who don't menstruate or have disorders that require medical intervention. Their corporal experience is certainly going to influence their thinking of womanhood and it's not a happy one.
You are entitled to your beliefs but that shouldn't affect the lives and care of others whose existence in no way affects you. I would love to have had the opportunity to delay or stop puberty, it would have solved so many later problems and prevented years of misery.
Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.The decision to go down the route is not taken lightly and in no way an instant access thing as there are years of counselling and assessment and that's after finally getting onto the specialist clinics books. The waiting time just for an initial appointment to be considered being taken on by the one of these clinics is over a year then there's a further delay to the next step.
As for the experience of periods and that as an indication of eligibility to be a woman you're forgetting the women who don't menstruate or have disorders that require medical intervention. Their corporal experience is certainly going to influence their thinking of womanhood and it's not a happy one.
You are entitled to your beliefs but that shouldn't affect the lives and care of others whose existence in no way affects you. I would love to have had the opportunity to delay or stop puberty, it would have solved so many later problems and prevented years of misery.
I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.
Dromedary66 said:
It is truly appalling that scarce police resources are wasted on satisfying the hurty feelings of trannies who spend too much time on the internet when so many actual crimes are never satisfactorily investigated.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687123/M...
This is why people who apply to become police officers will need a degree. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687123/M...
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