The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
j_4m said:
Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.
I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.
I think the problem is that you seemingly think that being trans is a choice, or is something that can be influenced by third parties. Trans people know from their experiences that it isn't, and thankfully most health organisations worth a damn know this too, but unfortunately I think it's a view point that is still banded around as 'fact' by too many people.I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.
I don't know a single transgender person who was cool going through the wrong puberty. It is an awkward and confusing enough time for cis people, but for trans folk it is a special kind of hell that causes long lasting and sometimes unrepairable mental and physical damage that is detrimental to our wellbeings going forwards as adults.
Going through a delayed puberty in the very, very rare cases where a person decides not to continue with hormone replacement therapy does not cause anywhere near the level of turmoil and damage that going through the wrong puberty does. Oh, and as has been said countless times, SRS or other surgeries are not available to minors, and hormone therapy is only offered after a LONG amount of therapy and monitoring by health professionals.
But your suggestion of bushing sex, sexuality and transgenderism under the carpet for people to discover for themselves sounds like a recipe for disaster, causing huge strains on mental and other health services, high rates of STDs and unwanted pregnancies and alarming suicide and self harm rates among young people.
Kinda like what is happening right now actually...
j_4m said:
descentia said:
Oh no not the think of the children argument again. In the same way as education about gay people hasn't turned no gay children to same sex attraction the only ones who are going to given puberty blockers will be the ones who are under medical supervision for a long time.
The decision to go down the route is not taken lightly and in no way an instant access thing as there are years of counselling and assessment and that's after finally getting onto the specialist clinics books. The waiting time just for an initial appointment to be considered being taken on by the one of these clinics is over a year then there's a further delay to the next step.
As for the experience of periods and that as an indication of eligibility to be a woman you're forgetting the women who don't menstruate or have disorders that require medical intervention. Their corporal experience is certainly going to influence their thinking of womanhood and it's not a happy one.
You are entitled to your beliefs but that shouldn't affect the lives and care of others whose existence in no way affects you. I would love to have had the opportunity to delay or stop puberty, it would have solved so many later problems and prevented years of misery.
Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.The decision to go down the route is not taken lightly and in no way an instant access thing as there are years of counselling and assessment and that's after finally getting onto the specialist clinics books. The waiting time just for an initial appointment to be considered being taken on by the one of these clinics is over a year then there's a further delay to the next step.
As for the experience of periods and that as an indication of eligibility to be a woman you're forgetting the women who don't menstruate or have disorders that require medical intervention. Their corporal experience is certainly going to influence their thinking of womanhood and it's not a happy one.
You are entitled to your beliefs but that shouldn't affect the lives and care of others whose existence in no way affects you. I would love to have had the opportunity to delay or stop puberty, it would have solved so many later problems and prevented years of misery.
I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.
IanH755 said:
Call a Man a Man and get arrested - what a strange time to live in!
Calling that "Hate Speech" degrades the term and wastes the Police's time and effort over someone's hurt feelings.
Engage in Hate Speech and get arrested for Hate Speech.Calling that "Hate Speech" degrades the term and wastes the Police's time and effort over someone's hurt feelings.
No different from making homophobic or racist remarks. Or would you prefer it if those were still allowed too?
IanH755 said:
Call a Man a Man and get arrested - what a strange time to live in!
Calling that "Hate Speech" degrades the term and wastes the Police's time and effort over someone's hurt feelings.
Good to see that Hertfordshire police aren't suffering the lack of resources and money that other counties claim to be suffering though. Must be quite reassuring if you live there. Calling that "Hate Speech" degrades the term and wastes the Police's time and effort over someone's hurt feelings.
WorldBoss said:
post
I’ve not once said that being transgender is a choice, I don’t believe it is anymore than being gay or straight is. I also said I’m fine with it being taught in schools, careless double negative use.8.4l 154 said:
post
Yes, I understand. I was talking in the context of the examples given.Edited by j_4m on Sunday 10th February 16:18
WorldBoss said:
I think the problem is that you seemingly think that being trans is a choice, or is something that can be influenced by third parties. Trans people know from their experiences that it isn't, and thankfully most health organisations worth a damn know this too, but unfortunately I think it's a view point that is still banded around as 'fact' by too many people.
Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.Your comments on people going through the 'wrong' puberty just sound ridiculous to me. This 'wrong' puberty is a natural event in the body and the alternative (right?) puberty involves hormone therapy and whatnot.
witko999 said:
Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.
Nope, absolutely not. And I can speak from experience on this. I have always known I was different. I was raised in pretty much that "complete isolation" in that respect as it was pre-WWW and the information wasn't there and my parents weren't exactly progressive. I literally did not know that trans was a thing. All I knew is that I should have been born a girl, and that I much preferred "girl things" to "boy things" and envied my sister. I remember distinctly in the 1980's my sister trying on a Ra-Ra skirt and me blurting out "why do girls get all the best fashion?" (hey, it was the 1980's), and the shop assistant jokingly saying "Would you like a Ra-Ra skirt too then?" and me hotly denying it (but in my head saying "Oh gods yes, so much").
It was only well into my adult life when a friend came out to me as trans (she presented as male, and wasn't yet "out") and she told me more about it, it was like a lightbulb coming on over my head. Suddenly everything made sense, and it all clicked into place. Everything up till then suddenly made sense in this new context with this new information.
Had I had the information available to me at an earlier age, and supportive parents, I know that I would have realised so much sooner.
I am glad that information is more readily available now, and that young people are aware of trans being a "thing" and can make an informed choice at an earlier age. I wish I had had the benefit of it, instead of living over half my life with a feeling that something was wrong, and that I was in some way defective, and being unhappy.
witko999 said:
Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.
Not having the language to describe something isn’t the same as not experiencing it. Clockwork Cupcake said:
Nope, absolutely not. And I can speak from experience on this.
I have always known I was different. I was raised in pretty much that "complete isolation" in that respect as it was pre-WWW and the information wasn't there and my parents weren't exactly progressive. I literally did not know that trans was a thing. All I knew is that I should have been born a girl, and that I much preferred "girl things" to "boy things" and envied my sister. I remember distinctly in the 1980's my sister trying on a Ra-Ra skirt and me blurting out "why do girls get all the best fashion?" (hey, it was the 1980's), and the shop assistant jokingly saying "Would you like a Ra-Ra skirt too then?" and me hotly denying it (but in my head saying "Oh gods yes, so much").
Genuine question here, not trying to be a dick.I have always known I was different. I was raised in pretty much that "complete isolation" in that respect as it was pre-WWW and the information wasn't there and my parents weren't exactly progressive. I literally did not know that trans was a thing. All I knew is that I should have been born a girl, and that I much preferred "girl things" to "boy things" and envied my sister. I remember distinctly in the 1980's my sister trying on a Ra-Ra skirt and me blurting out "why do girls get all the best fashion?" (hey, it was the 1980's), and the shop assistant jokingly saying "Would you like a Ra-Ra skirt too then?" and me hotly denying it (but in my head saying "Oh gods yes, so much").
Do you remember any particular experience that told you "I am not meant to be a male" that wasn't defined by a socialised gender norm? Hard question to frame and it might prove impossible to answer given how we normally define masculinity and femininity with external indicators like skirts/trousers, long-hair/short-hair, etc. I guess for me as a cisgendered male the best example I can think of is an almost visceral sense of competitiveness; for example when I'm sparring with training partners there is a real primal need to win that verges on bloodlust. A lot of my male friends experience the same thing in competitive scenarios, my female friends have no idea what I'm talking about.
j_4m said:
Genuine question here, not trying to be a dick.
Do you remember any particular experience that told you "I am not meant to be a male" that wasn't defined by a socialised gender norm? Hard question to frame and it might prove impossible to answer given how we normally define masculinity and femininity with external indicators like skirts/trousers, long-hair/short-hair, etc. I guess for me as a cisgendered male the best example I can think of is an almost visceral sense of competitiveness; for example when I'm sparring with training partners there is a real primal need to win that verges on bloodlust. A lot of my male friends experience the same thing in competitive scenarios, my female friends have no idea what I'm talking about.
Well, rather ironically, my sister was always the outdoorsy "tomboy" type. My mother would always remark that if she sent the two of us out of the house, my sister would be covered in mud within 2 minutes and I'd come home at the end of the day pristine. That's not meant to be in any way "proof" of anything, just an anecdote. Do you remember any particular experience that told you "I am not meant to be a male" that wasn't defined by a socialised gender norm? Hard question to frame and it might prove impossible to answer given how we normally define masculinity and femininity with external indicators like skirts/trousers, long-hair/short-hair, etc. I guess for me as a cisgendered male the best example I can think of is an almost visceral sense of competitiveness; for example when I'm sparring with training partners there is a real primal need to win that verges on bloodlust. A lot of my male friends experience the same thing in competitive scenarios, my female friends have no idea what I'm talking about.
But I certainly grew up being teased and taunted for being a "sissy" and a "wimp" and told to "man up" and "grow a pair". And I've certainly always felt I had little or nothing in common with men, and an awful lot with women.
At the end of the day, I am "me". And that just happens to fit in better with what society deems to be a woman than what it deems to be a man.
And male fashion sucks, btw. Women really do get all the best fashion.
(I also own a Ra-Ra skirt now. Better late than never.
)Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Sunday 10th February 20:39
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Well, rather ironically, my sister was always the outdoorsy "tomboy" type. My mother would always remark that if she sent the two of us out of the house, my sister would be covered in mud within 2 minutes and I'd come hope at the end of the day pristine. That's not meant to be in any way "proof" of anything, just an anecdote.
But I certainly grew up being teased and taunted for being a "sissy" and a "wimp" and told to "man up" and "grow a pair". And I've certainly always felt I had little or nothing in common with men, and an awful lot with women.
At the end of the day, I am "me". And that just happens to fit in better with what society deems to be a woman than what it deems to be a man.
And male fashion sucks, btw. Women really do get all the best fashion.
(I also own a Ra-Ra skirt now. Better late than never. )
Thanks, good answer!But I certainly grew up being teased and taunted for being a "sissy" and a "wimp" and told to "man up" and "grow a pair". And I've certainly always felt I had little or nothing in common with men, and an awful lot with women.
At the end of the day, I am "me". And that just happens to fit in better with what society deems to be a woman than what it deems to be a man.
And male fashion sucks, btw. Women really do get all the best fashion.
(I also own a Ra-Ra skirt now. Better late than never.
)Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.
j_4m said:
Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.
Well, you'd think that people would have to accept that. But, sadly, many do not. That's part of the debate I think. And something that I feel shouldn't be a matter of debate.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
j_4m said:
Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.
Well, you'd think that people would have to accept that. But, sadly, many do not. That's part of the debate I think. And something that I feel shouldn't be a matter of debate.
Just that they perhaps do not want to go along with the whole "you're a bloke, but act and dress like a woman so they expect me to call them 'she' ".
witko999 said:
Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.
Nope. The concept of what actually being trans is was introduced to me pretty late in life, and even to this day the concept still isn't totally 'normalized' in my mind. My family aren't exactly advocates of the LGBT community and in no way ever suggested being trans was acceptable, either as a child or even now as an adult.
Despite that, I remember aged about 4-5 that I felt somewhat was uncomfortable being a boy, and very clearly remembering at 7 that I had made the decision that I wanted to be a girl, badly. Nothing external influenced these thoughts other than my natural development, they came out precisely nowhere and they stuck with me and grew over many years and never once went away, but with no explanation or words to describe how or what I felt, I fell deeper and deeper into a hole of repression, depression and dysphoria that I have little doubt would have killed me within a few years.
I'm grateful that my realization happened when it did, but knowledge of the true existence of transgenderism when I was younger would have saved me (and many other trans people) SO much damage. Way more damage caused than the very rare occasions of a child getting slightly confused and delaying their puberty slightly, IMHO.
witko999 said:
Your comments on people going through the 'wrong' puberty just sound ridiculous to me. This 'wrong' puberty is a natural event in the body and the alternative (right?) puberty involves hormone therapy and whatnot.
People are their minds, not their genitals or endocrine systems . Let me assure you, if your mind is towards the female end of the spectrum, going through a male puberty, subsequent masculinization and running primarily on testosterone is incredibility distressing. If we are going to obsess about natural events in the body we might as well pack up all medical research and treatment and go back to praying things away. Cancer is a 'natural event' in the body FFS, nobody advocates sitting back and letting nature take its course on that one.
We medically treat people so they can live fuller, healthier, more productive lives than perhaps what their bodies would do without intervention. Trans health care is no different.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 10th February 21:02
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 10th February 21:03
xjay1337 said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
j_4m said:
Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.
Well, you'd think that people would have to accept that. But, sadly, many do not. That's part of the debate I think. And something that I feel shouldn't be a matter of debate.
Just that they perhaps do not want to go along with the whole "you're a bloke, but act and dress like a woman so they expect me to call them 'she' ".
rover 623gsi said:
the problem with accepting that people have a right to be whoever they feel they are, is that you create a situation where feelings are more important than facts. Biology matters and it is impossible for a male to become a female (or vice versa). A man who wishes to live as a woman can choose to do so, but he can never be or become a woman, he can only live 'as a woman' and there will always be behaviours and situations where that person's sex is more important than their preferred gender.
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