The Gender Non-binary debate.

Author
Discussion

Vandenberg

1,292 posts

69 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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ReallyReallyGood said:
It's liberalism gone too far, courtesy of our modern education system.

In a few years time when there are enough graduates coming through the system it'll all be about safe spaces and trigger warnings in public/work place.

This kind of s**t is why Trump won.
I have a lecturing gig with a US University, last semester I had to attend numerous training courses , including culture and gender awareness training and told I was to use the preferred pronouns of the students as they had all been asked on enrolment as a new policy.

I stuck with the tried and tested traditional convention of addressing the students by their names, so much easier.
Great gig but I do have to bite my tongue from time to time.

Buzz word

2,008 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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IanH755 said:
Genetically you're either male or female i.e. XX or XY chromosones, even those with both sex organs are genetically one or the other.

Mentally however people can think whatever the hell they like as far as I''m concerned. I mean you can sexually identify as an Apache Attack Helicopter, if thats what floats your boat, just keep it to yourself as I don't need nor want to know.
There are a lot more combinations than that from single X chromosomes with Turner syndrome of XXXXY with Klinefelter syndrome. The odds of not being XX or XY can be as low as 1/500. That seems like low odds but is realistically 0.002% and the trans population stat is 0.1-0.3% suggesting many trans must not have those syndromes. My point being its not quite that simple.

I agree though you can't just identify as what you like as you see fit. I think Rachel Dolezal is hilarious for seemingly convincing people you can even change race if you want it hard enough.


feef

4,031 posts

119 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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R1gtr said:
TurboHatchback said:
not will I accept them flouting laws and social rules for the same reason (toilets, changing rooms, prisons, employment rules etc).
Pretty much sums it up for me.
So you see a beautiful woman walk into a woman's toilet or changing room.
How would you know if they were born with dangly bits? How can you say you can't accept them 'flouting laws' unless you're going to do some DNA test on every individual entering a bathroom to check that your sensibilities aren't offended, ignoring completely how they feel they are as an individual

Trophy Husband

872 posts

43 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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Shuvi McTupya said:
And while we are on the subject...what is this transvestite thing all about?

A guy wants to dress 'as a woman'. Women wear jeans and Jumpers too don't they? Isn't making a point of putting on a mini skirt and skimpy top just objectifying women, or some shiite like that?
About 20 years ago I went round to see my mate who was ex-forces and had just split with his wife of 10 years, 3 kids. He was living in his grannies old house as she had recently passed away. It was mid summer and a lovely day. I rang the bell, no answer. Me being the not giving up type I went round the back as I had heard music, in fact it was U2, Where the Streets have No Name. At the rear of the bungalow was a full length sun room, the door was open and there was an expensive SLR set up on a tripod in the middle of the sun lounge. I called out his name and this leggy lady with long wavy black hair, fish net stockings, boobs, the lot came out of the kitchen with a fag in one hand and, most incongruously, a can of Fosters in the other . Of course, the penny didn't drop until she spoke and said "This is me Jon, this is why me and xxx split up, do you want a beer?". So, we sat down and we had a great chat. It turned out that he had been dressing up in girls clothes since he was a toddler and that from the age of 5 he was put on Ritalin (IIRC) to stop the urges and had been on other medications throughout his life to decrease the urges. He'd had enough. Anyhoo, to satisfy his urges he spent a whole weekend every month as a woman. Went shopping in Manchester as a woman, went to Canal Street as a woman, copped off with some stunning women whilst dressed up and had a great time for the weekend. After that he returned to being good old 'Dave'. We had a right laugh when I asked if I could see his wardrobe, all very tarty. I never did tell any of the lads who we regularly drank with, it was our little secret. I wonder where he/she is now?


Thorodin

2,059 posts

69 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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As a first step towards reality it might be rewarding to dispense with the rubbish that is the term 'born in the wrong body'. These euphemisms do nobody any good. They merely serve to paper over the cracks. No euphemism intended.
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Nanook

33,307 posts

123 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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Finally, an alternate gender I can identify with!




This topic came up a few months ago and I pissed someone off by comparing transgender people to furries.

As I recall, she went bonkers at me because furries are a piss take and transgender is a real thing.

They don't want equality for everyone. Just for themselves.

Shuvi McTupya

21,450 posts

183 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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Trophy Husband said:
About 20 years ago I went round to see my mate who was ex-forces and had just split with his wife of 10 years, 3 kids. He was living in his grannies old house as she had recently passed away. It was mid summer and a lovely day. I rang the bell, no answer. Me being the not giving up type I went round the back as I had heard music, in fact it was U2, Where the Streets have No Name. At the rear of the bungalow was a full length sun room, the door was open and there was an expensive SLR set up on a tripod in the middle of the sun lounge. I called out his name and this leggy lady with long wavy black hair, fish net stockings, boobs, the lot came out of the kitchen with a fag in one hand and, most incongruously, a can of Fosters in the other . Of course, the penny didn't drop until she spoke and said "This is me Jon, this is why me and xxx split up, do you want a beer?". So, we sat down and we had a great chat. It turned out that he had been dressing up in girls clothes since he was a toddler and that from the age of 5 he was put on Ritalin (IIRC) to stop the urges and had been on other medications throughout his life to decrease the urges. He'd had enough. Anyhoo, to satisfy his urges he spent a whole weekend every month as a woman. Went shopping in Manchester as a woman, went to Canal Street as a woman, copped off with some stunning women whilst dressed up and had a great time for the weekend. After that he returned to being good old 'Dave'. We had a right laugh when I asked if I could see his wardrobe, all very tarty. I never did tell any of the lads who we regularly drank with, it was our little secret. I wonder where he/she is now?
To be fair,I have a mate like that too. He 'came out' to me after he had been to a cross dressing club a couple of times and knew that was his future. Of course it didn't phase me at all after the initial surprise. He actually made a striking looking girl at 6"2 and was very popular indeed within his new circle of freinds!

Rebew

94 posts

28 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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R1gtr said:
Pretty much sums it up for me.

I always wanted to be a cowboy when I was younger and I mean REALLY wanted to be.
However I can strap on some chaps and throw on a Stetson and ride Dobbin down the high St but a Cowboy that does not make.

Would I expect people to look at me in my splendour galloping past saying " look there's a cowboy"
Nope, I would expect "There's mental Davey on a pony" and quite rightly so.

As a side note, no wonder kids are confused, I'm grown adult and I have no idea what that gender unicorn is all about!
Are you trying to identify as ChemicalChaos? wink

WinstonWolf

70,325 posts

175 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Nanook said:
Finally, an alternate gender I can identify with!




This topic came up a few months ago and I pissed someone off by comparing transgender people to furries.

As I recall, she went bonkers at me because furries are a piss take and transgender is a real thing.

They don't want equality for everyone. Just for themselves.
That's because it was a bloke hehe

Goaty Bill 2

2,968 posts

55 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Shuvi McTupya said:
Trophy Husband said:
About 20 years ago I went round to see my mate who was ex-forces and had just split with his wife of 10 years, 3 kids. He was living in his grannies old house as she had recently passed away. It was mid summer and a lovely day. I rang the bell, no answer. Me being the not giving up type I went round the back as I had heard music, in fact it was U2, Where the Streets have No Name. At the rear of the bungalow was a full length sun room, the door was open and there was an expensive SLR set up on a tripod in the middle of the sun lounge. I called out his name and this leggy lady with long wavy black hair, fish net stockings, boobs, the lot came out of the kitchen with a fag in one hand and, most incongruously, a can of Fosters in the other . Of course, the penny didn't drop until she spoke and said "This is me Jon, this is why me and xxx split up, do you want a beer?". So, we sat down and we had a great chat. It turned out that he had been dressing up in girls clothes since he was a toddler and that from the age of 5 he was put on Ritalin (IIRC) to stop the urges and had been on other medications throughout his life to decrease the urges. He'd had enough. Anyhoo, to satisfy his urges he spent a whole weekend every month as a woman. Went shopping in Manchester as a woman, went to Canal Street as a woman, copped off with some stunning women whilst dressed up and had a great time for the weekend. After that he returned to being good old 'Dave'. We had a right laugh when I asked if I could see his wardrobe, all very tarty. I never did tell any of the lads who we regularly drank with, it was our little secret. I wonder where he/she is now?
To be fair,I have a mate like that too. He 'came out' to me after he had been to a cross dressing club a couple of times and knew that was his future. Of course it didn't phase me at all after the initial surprise. He actually made a striking looking girl at 6"2 and was very popular indeed within his new circle of freinds!
I think the majority of reasonable and open minded people have few real issues with binary transgender; calling the person you once knew as 'he' now 'she'.

I had a business partner that changed his name by deed poll; new first and last name (perfectly legit, just hated his original name(s)).
It took me nearly two years to completely stop calling him by his old name, and even his wife admitted she was still occasionally getting it wrong after a year.
It's a piece of mental acrobatics our brains just aren't programmed for naturally.

It's the non-binary component and the demand by many that they can decide as they go during the day.
The very definition of either severe mental illness, or patently unreasonable demands on society.
I would say both of those. The variable being the degree of which component; illness or lack of reasonableness.


768

3,523 posts

32 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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TurboHatchback said:
I have no patience with the whole farce. I absolutely support and would defend the rights of everyone to dress how they like, shag who they like, talk how they like and have whatever plastic surgery they like done (so long as they pay for it themselves and are over 18). I will not however address people as what they are not just because they have mental health issues, not will I accept them flouting laws and social rules for the same reason (toilets, changing rooms, prisons, employment rules etc).

I'm afraid I just don't accept that 'gender' has any more meaning than the genitals you were born with. 'Identifying' is total bks to me, you are what you are. If I choose to 'identify' as black it doesn't make me black any more than 'identifying' as female would make me female. You are either male (born with meat and two veg), female (born with ladyparts), hermaphrodite (born with both) or androgynous (born with neither), that's it. Your 'gender' doesn't define how you should act, look or in fact anything other than the contents of your underwear.

Basically I support the rights of people to do whatever they like but not to inflict their choices on other people. If a man wants to wear a dress, high heels, makeup, talk in falsetto and marry another man that's absolutely fine however it's not fine for him to use the womens changing room or expect me to address him as female.
I guess I'm somewhere in the same ballpark.

I've spent a fair bit of time contracting in a large government department and the amount of work time and resources spent promoting this stuff I find staggering. Surely just do your job, wear a dress that matches your stubble if you must, but don't expect me to use a made up pronoun to refer to you?

But fk me am I not raising my head above the parapet in there. The LGBTASDFJKL; union members would be out on their high horses in force.

Ari

15,366 posts

151 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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I think a side effect of all this is young adults latching on to this stuff as a way of explaining away their issues.

I know a couple of people (offspring of friends) who seem to have had social issues growing up, seem unable to make or maintain friends or build much of a life for themselves. Now maybe it is because they have identity issues. I strongly suspect however that it's because they're a bit selfish, rather lazy and somewhat misguided.

But they've decided that they have 'gender issues' and that's the root of their problems, rather than making any effort to actually improve their lives and social skills.

Label applied, excuse made, nothing further needed.

RDMcG

12,772 posts

143 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
This is not about what people appear to be or how they dress, but their own conviction of their gender identity. In Canada where I live it's not really an issue at all. Even with Driver's licences there is an option to have no gender listed, or for someone who has undergone sex reassignment surgery they can have their gender described as their new gender.

Personally I have no problem..I do know one person ( a scientist) who went from male to female and who is very comfortable in a female identity. People can use washrooms as appropriate to their gender identity.


I think objectors may have some insecurity...I cannot understand how this (relatively rare) phenomenon has the slightest impact on anyone else. I would however think that in a dating situation it would be appropriate to reveal the change.

Nanook

33,307 posts

123 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
768 said:
But fk me am I not raising my head above the parapet in there. The LGBTASDFJKL; union members would be out on their high horses in force.
We have a thing in here called IDAHOBIT?

Not quite sure what the acronym stands for, international day something homosexual something bisexual transexual?

Something like that.

Anyway, they make a huge deal out of it, been a bunch of e-mails, talks you're supposed to attend, all that carry on.

I really couldn't care less. And I'll not be attending any of them, partly because I'm not staff here so it's not compulsory, partly because I have actual work to do.

Like just about everything else, my view is do whatever you like if it's not harming anyone else. Do what ever makes you happy.

Just don't expect me to care.

xjay1337

11,082 posts

54 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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Trophy Husband said:
I am a man (at least I think I am but someone may tell me otherwise!) in my late forties. I consider myself to be liberal to all variants of gender identification on an as and when basis ie. if and when I meet a real person who has made a 'choice' about how they want to identify themselves I will respect them as I should. However, it is not a real world issue to me purely based on statistics. What irks me is that whilst I understand the difficulties experienced by individuals with (FFS you have to be so careful about choice of words!!) different feelings about their own gender we all seem to have to be thinking about it more than we should need to. There is too much crusading going on and too much being rammed down our throats about it. I have two sons 5 & 6, we live in rural North Wales, they go to a small village school in a lovely community and I really don't see the need for them to be learning about these issues that affect such a very,very small proportion of the population. I am teaching them to respect and be kind to everyone they meet without exception and believe that that is enough for now. When they are older and I can explain things to them in a way that they can slowly grasp then that is what I will do. Until then, enough already.
TurboHatchback said:
I have no patience with the whole farce. I absolutely support and would defend the rights of everyone to dress how they like, shag who they like, talk how they like and have whatever plastic surgery they like done (so long as they pay for it themselves and are over 18). I will not however address people as what they are not just because they have mental health issues, not will I accept them flouting laws and social rules for the same reason (toilets, changing rooms, prisons, employment rules etc).

I'm afraid I just don't accept that 'gender' has any more meaning than the genitals you were born with. 'Identifying' is total bks to me, you are what you are. If I choose to 'identify' as black it doesn't make me black any more than 'identifying' as female would make me female. You are either male (born with meat and two veg), female (born with ladyparts), hermaphrodite (born with both) or androgynous (born with neither), that's it. Your 'gender' doesn't define how you should act, look or in fact anything other than the contents of your underwear.

Basically I support the rights of people to do whatever they like but not to inflict their choices on other people. If a man wants to wear a dress, high heels, makeup, talk in falsetto and marry another man that's absolutely fine however it's not fine for him to use the womens changing room or expect me to address him as female.
fatjon said:
Cannot be arsed with pretending that I am as deluded as they are by humouring their delusion. If you are born with a chopper you're a man and if not you are a woman. If you are born with both or neither than fair enough, make your choicer and I'm happy enough to accept it.
Views I fully agree with.

roachcoach

3,965 posts

91 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
RDMcG said:
I think objectors may have some insecurity...I cannot understand how this (relatively rare) phenomenon has the slightest impact on anyone else. I would however think that in a dating situation it would be appropriate to reveal the change.
In the spirit of devils advocate, there is a definite debate to be had when it comes to competitive sport where the "genders" are segregated.

I feel like if Anthony Joshua turned around tomorrow and said "call me Sheila", and proceeded to enter female boxing fights then there may well be some eyebrows raised as to the appropriateness of that.

Derek Smith

32,111 posts

184 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
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thetoxicnerve said:
So unisex toilets everywhere then Derek? Assuming all cubicle type then I guess there isn't a problem.

Personally, I think it's all bks and a fuss about nothing. I should clarify my thoughts:

  1. People's "legal status" should be limited to their birth / genetic sex - Physiological Identity
  2. People should be able to identify however they wish - Psychological identity
  3. People should be able to dress however they wish - Expression of identity
  4. People should be able to conduct relationships with whomever they wish as long as all parties are aware - upfront - about the genetic / birth gender of their partner(s) - Sexual Identity
Item 1 should hold true from the day a person is born until they die.

Items 2-4 are trickier, I would like to suggest they should only apply once people are over the age of 16 but not sure how you could do that. Children are going to be exposed to this stuff.
There is no way to be sure of a baby's gender at birth. This is not me saying that but a midwife. There have been mistakes in the past which have given rise to considerable problems for the person involved so why try to identify at birth? And why should it matter?




Hoofy

67,903 posts

218 months

XM5ER

5,073 posts

184 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
Goaty Bill 2 said:
What happens in north America has a disturbing habit of making it's way across the pond.
For the snapchat/instagram generation, for all intents and purposes there is zero time lag.
I was astonished to be having a similar discussion with my 13 year old daughter this week. She is of the opinion that all this multigendric stuff is utter rubbish and has been arguing a case with all of the boys in her class about it. Let that sink in for a minute. But she loves to "trigger the special snowflakes" in the school. smile

Goaty Bill 2

2,968 posts

55 months

Wednesday 17th May 2017
quotequote all
RDMcG said:
This is not about what people appear to be or how they dress, but their own conviction of their gender identity. In Canada where I live it's not really an issue at all. Even with Driver's licences there is an option to have no gender listed, or for someone who has undergone sex reassignment surgery they can have their gender described as their new gender.

Personally I have no problem..I do know one person ( a scientist) who went from male to female and who is very comfortable in a female identity. People can use washrooms as appropriate to their gender identity.


I think objectors may have some insecurity...I cannot understand how this (relatively rare) phenomenon has the slightest impact on anyone else. I would however think that in a dating situation it would be appropriate to reveal the change.
Are you familiar with the issues and protests at UoT (and elsewhere) regarding Dr. Peterson / bill C16 featured in the OP video?

I don't doubt that the majority of LGBT people simply want to get on with their lives as any one else does.
If only it were that simple across the board.