The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

So, just to be clear here, a child raised in ignorance of homosexuality will never realise they are gay? And a child raised in ignorance of transgenderism will never realise they are transgender?

This seems highly unlikely to me. Especially as I was raised in ignorance of transgenderism and still grew up wishing I had been born a girl, and thinking that I should have been.

witko999 said:

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you of anything and it's unlikely that you're going to convince me of anything, so I'll leave it there.

Fair enough. If your mind is so closed that you don't want to accept new information and new ideas, then so be it.

[xjay1337]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

So, just to be clear here, a child raised in ignorance of homosexuality will never realise they are gay? And a child raised in ignorance of transgenderism will never realise they are transgender?

This seems highly unlikely to me. Especially as I was raised in ignorance of transgenderism and still grew up wishing I had been born a girl, and thinking that I should have been.

witko999 said:

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you of anything and it's unlikely that you're going to convince me of anything, so I'll leave it there.

Fair enough. If your mind is so closed that you don't want to accept new information and new ideas, then so be it.

Don't think that's being said
But I'd say around 70% of how someone "turns out" whether that's sexuality, personality, intelligence, is due to the environment they are raised / grow up in.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

xjay1337 said:

Don't think that's being said
But I'd say around 70% of how someone "turns out" whether that's sexuality, personality, intelligence, is due to the environment they are raised / grow up in.

"Nurture vs Nature" has been discussed for a very long time, in many papers, and I don't think we'll resolve that one here.

I'm just pointing out that I was raised in total ignorance of transgenderism and yet still came to realise I should have been a girl. According to witko999 that is utterly impossible. I beg to differ and present case study evidence to the contrary (ie. my own experience).

As the refrain from The War of the Worlds goes:
"The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one, he said
The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one...
But still, they come!"

Edit: I don't necessarily disagree with you, mind. I just can't see anything that may have influenced me, that's all.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Tuesday 12th February 19:25

[otolith]

amusingduck said:

I don't see the difference in principle, and I don't see how it's logical to effectively remove biology from the conversation when it comes to transgender people, but then use biology as the justification as to why this tiger guy's identity is illegitimate.

Is it common, perhaps as much as 50% of the time, for human embryos to develop into tigers? Is it conceivable that, in the way that sometimes human foetuses develop external sexual characteristics which do not match what would be expected from their chromosomal makeup, they may develop brains more like those of tigers? Do you really think that the two things are similar? Can you propose a plausible biological mechanism?

[amusingduck]

otolith said:

amusingduck said:

I don't see the difference in principle, and I don't see how it's logical to effectively remove biology from the conversation when it comes to transgender people, but then use biology as the justification as to why this tiger guy's identity is illegitimate.

Is it common, perhaps as much as 50% of the time, for human embryos to develop into tigers? Is it conceivable that, in the way that sometimes human foetuses develop external sexual characteristics which do not match what would be expected from their chromosomal makeup, they may develop brains more like those of tigers? Do you really think that the two things are similar? Can you propose a plausible biological mechanism?

Right, but what you're talking about is only the simplest examples of transgender people. Born as one thing, but feel that they're the other. That makes perfect sense to me.

Beyond that, I rapidly start losing what the principle is. I used to think that the principle was that there were two sexes, and sometimes the brain's sex doesn't match the body's sex. Makes sense to me, but that only works for MTF and FTM people, and doesn't (i think) encapsulate the non-binary people whatsoever.

The justifications around non-binary seem to revolve around the principle that gender is entirely a social construct, divorced from biology. Viewed through that lens, I cannot see any reason that a non-binary identity is legitimate, but the tiger guy's identity is not.

Honestly, it feels to me that once you go beyond FTM/MTF, it rapidly becomes nonsensical. Some things make sense in isolation, but the overall picture is so confusing.

[jdw100]

Back in the mid-90s I was running some Production teams in a factory we had built in North Wales.

We were due a visit from an automaton engineer from our HQ in LA. A couple of days before he was due to arrive we had a call from our Production VP over there to give us a heads-up that this engineer (who had been with the company for 10 years) was transitioning from male to female.

Well, my production teams had people in them that had never been outside North Wales in their life. I had one team doing hand-assembly that were all females in their 50s and 60s...lots of gossip, Welsh housewives basically.

My other teams included some quite conservative people, bit macho, still adjusting to working in a Life Sciences company after working for tougher industries etc. Not a metropolitan bunch basically.

I briefed them that the Engineer was coming in and what he was aiming to achieve, mentioned that he was also changing to be a she. Lots of stunned faces....a few jokes etc..

Our Engineer arrived and was wearing a lovely red summer dress and high heels, long blonde hair, built like a brick sthouse; like could have played some decent rugby!

I have never been more proud of my teams; could he use the ladies toilets? Of course, why not?

Some of my ladies were taking him up to lunch each day. Everyone, to be honest to my amazement, just treated the guy as if he was a) one of the team and b) like a woman.

Me and a couple of the other managers at our level took him out for a beer in town on the Friday. Getting a few funny looks and then we bump in to a couple of the warehouse guys. One of them (who used to work making slate tiles by hand in a slate quarry, before it closed down) comes up and says to our Engineer "Oi you!" I was thinking st they've had a few to drink...but then follows it up with "get a bloody round in then my love, its your shout"

Ended up having a great night out. As above just treated this transgender person with total respect. Could not have been more proud.

That's 25 years ago in North Wales.....then you read a few of the comments from people on here....what really is the issue? Great Engineer, nice person, why is it a problem if he decides to be she? Does it effect anyone they work with, no. Are they trying to make you change sex, no.

Just let people get on with it.

For the record as I recall, this guy (and I'm saying 'he' throughout my anecdote just to make clear who I'm talking about) had known since he was about six that something wasn't right, but it had taken 30 years before he'd had the courage to do something about it.

[esxste]

amusingduck said:

Right, but what you're talking about is only the simplest examples of transgender people. Born as one thing, but feel that they're the other. That makes perfect sense to me.

Beyond that, I rapidly start losing what the principle is. I used to think that the principle was that there were two sexes, and sometimes the brain's sex doesn't match the body's sex. Makes sense to me, but that only works for MTF and FTM people, and doesn't (i think) encapsulate the non-binary people whatsoever.

The justifications around non-binary seem to revolve around the principle that gender is entirely a social construct, divorced from biology. Viewed through that lens, I cannot see any reason that a non-binary identity is legitimate, but the tiger guy's identity is not.

Honestly, it feels to me that once you go beyond FTM/MTF, it rapidly becomes nonsensical. Some things make sense in isolation, but the overall picture is so confusing.

It sounds to me like you consider male and female to be two unique, exclusive categories. Born as one thing, feel they're the other. Binary choices.

And that is the social construct you are operating in.

Male or female. No middle ground. No grey area. No spectrum. You must be one or the other.

The biology is not binary. It is not the case that everyone is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, or that everyone is born with either a male reproductive system or a female reproductive system.

The idea biology is binary is a social construct.

Gender too is a spectrum, and is not divorced from the biology, it just isn't defined by the biology. The two are obviously highly linked, since the overall correlation strongly shows the biology matches gender.


As for the tiger guy. His identity as a tiger has nothing to do with gender. It's a red herring.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

amusingduck said:

Right, but what you're talking about is only the simplest examples of transgender people. Born as one thing, but feel that they're the other. That makes perfect sense to me.

Beyond that, I rapidly start losing what the principle is. I used to think that the principle was that there were two sexes, and sometimes the brain's sex doesn't match the body's sex. Makes sense to me, but that only works for MTF and FTM people, and doesn't (i think) encapsulate the non-binary people whatsoever.

The justifications around non-binary seem to revolve around the principle that gender is entirely a social construct, divorced from biology. Viewed through that lens, I cannot see any reason that a non-binary identity is legitimate, but the tiger guy's identity is not.

Honestly, it feels to me that once you go beyond FTM/MTF, it rapidly becomes nonsensical. Some things make sense in isolation, but the overall picture is so confusing.

Well, there's the thing.

I'm not on hormones, and I haven't had any surgery. When I put on my makeup and wig, and dress in "women's clothes" I generally pass without comment or even a second look. People treat me as a woman and I go into the ladies loos without comment (the world doesn't end, dogs and cats do not start living together, nobody gets sexually assaulted).

If I just want to pop down to the shops for a pint of milk, sometimes I can't be bothered to put on my makeup, so I'll pull on a t-shirt and jeans, and go "as is" and will pass unnoticed as a man. I can walk into the gents loos and nobody gives a st (apart from the ones grunting and farting in the stalls, of course).

I can literally choose the gender that people will see me as. That doesn't change who I am inside - I'm still me. It's just I can slip into either of the gender binaries, if I want to.

So does that make me male? Or female? Or both? Or neither? Not really. I'm still me. I'm just dressed differently and pandering to either one or the other of society's expectations about how I present.

It's just society has this whole "either / or" thing. It's kind of like a biker being told off for driving a car when it's rainy or they need to move a wardrobe. How can you be a biker AND a car driver? Choose one!

[otolith]

amusingduck said:

Beyond that, I rapidly start losing what the principle is. I used to think that the principle was that there were two sexes, and sometimes the brain's sex doesn't match the body's sex. Makes sense to me, but that only works for MTF and FTM people, and doesn't (i think) encapsulate the non-binary people whatsoever.

TBH, I have a strong suspicion that "non-binary" is more of a socio-political position than a biological condition.

[esxste]

otolith said:

TBH, I have a strong suspicion that "non-binary" is more of a socio-political position than a biological condition.

Upon what do you base your strong suspicions?

[otolith]

esxste said:

otolith said:

TBH, I have a strong suspicion that "non-binary" is more of a socio-political position than a biological condition.

Upon what do you base your strong suspicions?

Exposure to the opinions of people who describe themselves as such. Trans people do not appear to strongly conform to a narrow set of stereotyped social and political attitudes. Non-binary people do.

[esxste]

otolith said:

Exposure to the opinions of people who describe themselves as such. Trans people do not appear to strongly conform to a narrow set of stereotyped social and political attitudes. Non-binary people do.

Interesting.

I've always considered that those who identify as non-binary fall under the generic or umbrella term of Trans. I.e all non-binary people are Trans, but not all Trans people are non-binary.

What narrow set of social and political attitudes do you think non-binary people conform to?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Non-binary just means that someone doesn't conform to just one or other of the society-imposed roles of 'male' or 'female'. They could consider themselves both, or neither, or somewhere in between.

Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.

[otolith]

esxste said:

What narrow set of social and political attitudes do you think non-binary people conform to?

Strong views on feminist gender theory. Strong views on social justice topics.

[otolith]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Non-binary just means that someone doesn't conform to just one or other of the society-imposed roles of 'male' or 'female'. They could consider themselves both, or neither, or somewhere in between.

Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.

But you don't refuse to conform to gender roles - you identify as a woman and you express that in your behaviour. I suspect you would have found life much easier if you had not transitioned and had simply rejected male gender roles (which is what TERFs think you ought to have done).

[esxste]

otolith said:

Strong views on feminist gender theory. Strong views on social justice topics.

I'm not sure what feminist gender theory is... its the first I've heard of the term.What is it?

I think you'll find most LGBT people have some pretty strong views on social justice topics; particularly as it applies to their own rights. (and sadly, in many cases, only as it applies to their own rights).

[esxste]

otolith said:

But you don't refuse to conform to gender roles - you identify as a woman and you express that in your behaviour. I suspect you would have found life much easier if you had not transitioned and had simply rejected male gender roles (which is what TERFs think you ought to have done).

What expertise or experience do you have that informs your suspicions about whether CC would have found life easier?

[otolith]

esxste said:

otolith said:

Strong views on feminist gender theory. Strong views on social justice topics.

I'm not sure what feminist gender theory is... its the first I've heard of the term.What is it?

https://beingfeministblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/16...

Essentially the idea that the fixedness of gender roles is oppressive.

It's a concept I largely agree with, but I don't feel the need to bang on about it or to organise my life as a statement against it.

esxste said:

I think you'll find most LGBT people have some pretty strong views on social justice topics; particularly as it applies to their own rights. (and sadly, in many cases, only as it applies to their own rights).

Most of those I know are just normal people with a wide range of social and political attitudes. They're not particularly "woke".

[otolith]

esxste said:

otolith said:

But you don't refuse to conform to gender roles - you identify as a woman and you express that in your behaviour. I suspect you would have found life much easier if you had not transitioned and had simply rejected male gender roles (which is what TERFs think you ought to have done).

What expertise or experience do you have that informs your suspicions about whether CC would have found life easier?

There is a considerable amount of prejudice against trans people. There is somewhat less prejudice against people who simply refuse to conform to social expectations of how a man or woman ought to behave, at least in part because these days (thankfully) there is more acceptance of non-conformance.

Which parts of those assertions do you disagree with?

[descentia]

'

Edited by descentia on Sunday 31st March 21:17