The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

When I came out to my friends, I had a pretty good idea who would be totally cool with it and who would not, and on the whole I was mostly right.

Your answer makes a lot of sense. Regarding what I've quoted, that shocks me. I have two gay friends. Both called James, curiously. James one I became friends with at 10 y/o, James two 11 y/o. They are both in my close 10 friends. To the best of my knowledge neither lost any friends when they came out. Personally I'd have cut off anyone who did make a problem of it. Who my friends are attracted to has no baring on if I want them as a friend, and if any friend had a problem with it it would tell me more about them.

Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Friday 22 February 21:15

[Clockwork Cupcake]

descentia said:

Context is everything and from how CC told the story it was a friendly encounter, no animosity or slurs intended. In the same way as women discuss attractive gay men and say something very similar

Wasn't me!

[descentia]

'

Edited by descentia on Sunday 31st March 22:19

[George Smiley]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

George Smiley said:

I'd just like to clear one very misleading fact/lie up. CC has asserted something I find very disturbing and makes me shudder to the core. I'm not married.

Oh, I do apologise. I was sure you said you were. Or, at the very least, in a steady relationship. Which, with hindsight, I should have added to the list (so I have added an edit now)

Well, anyway. You're probably caught by one of the filters in my list so you're probably safe.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Friday 22 February 21:08

A few pages back you said you came on to someone at the BTaP. Obviously back then, that person would have assumed it as a man on man advance but as you identify now as transgender, was it a woman trapped in a mans body advance?

I guess one of the difficult things to consider/overcome for us knuckle draggers is that if you are attracted to men are you attracted to the, as you are female but with male genitals or are you confusing the fact you like men as meaning you must be a woman?

Theres reports of people that felt that they were in the wrong body but post operation found out hey were just gay/confused. Do you think there is a slight, however remote, risk that could affect you post op?

Will you be going to Thailand? I know the member I met had her operation over there but had a lot of post operation complications with necro issues with the tissue or does the NHS offer this now?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Your answer makes a lot of sense. Regarding what I've quoted, that shocks me.

It was mainly Facebook friends. The first round was when my wife decided to out me to all our mutual friends at the start of our divorce, so it was all muddled up with battle lines being drawn and sides being taken.

The second round was non-mutual FB friends and new ones, a few years later. The majority were cool (many either knew or had guessed). A few drifted away, some sooner than others. One or two made increasingly transphobic jibes and "jokes" and eventually defriended me or were defriended by me.

So, it wasn't a large number but it was greater than zero. I suppose you could say that of the people who were actually friends, all were cool with it.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

A few pages back you said you came on to someone at the BTaP. Obviously back then, that person would have assumed it as a man on man advance but as you identify now as transgender, was it a woman trapped in a mans body advance?

I guess one of the difficult things to consider/overcome for us knuckle draggers is that if you are attracted to men are you attracted to the, as you are female but with male genitals or are you confusing the fact you like men as meaning you must be a woman?

I just fancy who I fancy. I'm not really that bothered about gender or genitals. I guess that makes me pansexual (although skillets are right out).

To be honest, an emotional connection with someone, and nice cuddles, are of far more interest to me than sticking things in things or having things stuck in things.

[George Smiley]

No matter how upset/angry or whatever your wife felt (no idea on the cause of the divorce but guessing you broached your gender desire and she didn't accept it) there is no excuse for her to broadcast it to the world like that. Sorry to hear you went through that

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

No matter how upset/angry or whatever your wife felt (no idea on the cause of the divorce but guessing you broached your gender desire and she didn't accept it) there is no excuse for her to broadcast it to the world like that. Sorry to hear you went through that

Thanks.

The worst thing about it that she thought it was the "honest" and "moral" thing to do. No, really.

(That's not a jibe at you, BTW. That really is what she thought / said).

As for the reasons for the divorce, it wasn't that (although it didn't help). Amusingly, she *had* told me about a year or so before that, following a friend coming out to me and me realising that I was almost certainly the same (the light bulb moment when everything made sense and fell into place that I mentioned pages back) that if I decided that I too was TG then she would divorce me. Over the course of that year or so I a) came to the realisation that I was and b) that I needed to be out of the toxic relationship. So when I made the decision, and said "Well, I am TG and now you have to leave me" she said "no. We can work it out" and I replied "no, we can't. We really can't"

It actually started off fairly amicably, and the Facebook "outing" was during the initial amicable bit. Needless to say it went downhill from here. But that is beyond the scope of this thread and also not a matter for a public forum.

Edit: At one point during the divorce, she did threaten to out me to my parents though, and I had to pre-emptively tell them myself instead.
Also when we went to court, she submitted photos from my Flickr Stream to the court. My solicitor submitted a complaint to the Court prior to the hearing and I took a Barrister into the hearing, but the first thing the Magistrate did was tell her Counsel off for mud slinging. In a way I was a little disappointed as my Barrister was quite expensive and was ready to rumble.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Friday 22 February 21:55

[8.4L 154]

br d said:

Can of worms here (although just about everything on this thread is a potential minefield!), an anecdote has been told from a bloke having a beer in Canal Street who politely turned down a sexual suggestion from a couple of gay blokes. So far so good, I don't think anybody here with half a brain would find this shocking or troublesome.

This tale was received with smiles and nods of approval. However, the proposer of this liason when refused said "You are wasted on fish"

This is a straight out unpleasant misogynistic slur and had someone recounted a similar barb against a trans person they would have been rightly held to account for it.

Double standard?

I feel both sides here are guilty of confirmation bias. Only to be expected of course but there's a bit to much moral grandstanding and not enough elasticity from each viewpoint.

Double standard, I don't think so, Do you realise how many transphobic posts on this thread go unchallenged and let slide under the CBA approach? Scroll back to the top of the last page for a good example (now challenged Schroedinger transphobe).

[George Smiley]

No matter how upset/angry or whatever your wife felt (no idea on the cause of the divorce but guessing you broached your gender desire and she didn't accept it) there is no excuse for her to broadcast it to the world like that. Sorry to hear you went through that

[descentia]

'

Edited by descentia on Sunday 31st March 22:20

[George Smiley]

I understand that but there's a level of dignity you hope one would have.

After losing a few kids I came home from working away (home at weekends) to find the ex pregnant. Elation turned to sadness as she packed up took my daughter and dogs as she was stacked up with the new daddy, she then announced to friend's and family by posting up a scan photo with the title oops. He then told me he knew all about me and the fact she had a family but still wanted to take it all. It's the only time I felt a cuckold

In retrospect I wish I did take my anger out on the ex and her partner, I wouldn't have gained anything but a level of instant satisfaction.

Despite the anger I listened to advice and said nothing. It's a same cupcakes ex didn't as exposing that , despite her natural feelings, publicly to his friends and family was way across the line.

[PorkRind]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

You: 2,690 posts,143 months
Me: 58,632 posts, 210 months

Now, I know you will shoot back that my greater post count means that all my posts have been low quality and worthless. And maybe they are, but I think I have contributed a lot more, and over a longer time, to PH than you have.

I Apologise, not worthless, but it does seem like you are quite defensive on teh subject and it does feel like you're defending the normality of it. Im not transphobic, like you said earlier you can be an attack helecopter if you like - just as long as you dont shove it down peoples throats and make a big old song and a dance about it, which this threads turned into. However, there have been some educational points to me whos just aware of dysphoria, i think personally its just hard to grasp when its never happened to me, if i were to have these feelings then it would make sense. Im just struggling with getting my head around how, presumably a chap in his, assuming your about 40/50, decides it doesnt feel right to be a bloke any more and then starts transition. Sorry if i've come across as an asshat but i struggle to get my head around it. Like others have said, in 10 years time when its more normalised ill probably be more accepting and ok with it all. Id be interested to see what you look like before and after though, but i understand thats asking a bit much !

[8.4L 154]

PorkRind said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

You: 2,690 posts,143 months
Me: 58,632 posts, 210 months

Now, I know you will shoot back that my greater post count means that all my posts have been low quality and worthless. And maybe they are, but I think I have contributed a lot more, and over a longer time, to PH than you have.

I Apologise, not worthless, but it does seem like you are quite defensive on teh subject and it does feel like you're defending the normality of it. Im not transphobic, like you said earlier you can be an attack helecopter if you like - just as long as you dont shove it down peoples throats and make a big old song and a dance about it, which this threads turned into. However, there have been some educational points to me whos just aware of dysphoria, i think personally its just hard to grasp when its never happened to me, if i were to have these feelings then it would make sense. Im just struggling with getting my head around how, presumably a chap in his, assuming your about 40/50, decides it doesnt feel right to be a bloke any more and then starts transition. Sorry if i've come across as an asshat but i struggle to get my head around it. Like others have said, in 10 years time when its more normalised ill probably be more accepting and ok with it all. Id be interested to see what you look like before and after though, but i understand thats asking a bit much !

It seems really odd the way a large number of people wonder into this thread with little knowledge of the subject and then proceed to tell those who do know it inside out that they're wrong and then complain about it being shoved down their throats.

Most odd. Perhaps stop, ask respectful questions, then listen and learn. And if you think this thread is shoving trans down your throat because there are a half dozen trans people contributing and responding to quite personal questions, then perhaps the thread is not for you.

[j_4m]

George Smiley said:

I understand that but there's a level of dignity you hope one would have.

After losing a few kids I came home from working away (home at weekends) to find the ex pregnant. Elation turned to sadness as she packed up took my daughter and dogs as she was stacked up with the new daddy, she then announced to friend's and family by posting up a scan photo with the title oops. He then told me he knew all about me and the fact she had a family but still wanted to take it all. It's the only time I felt a cuckold

In retrospect I wish I did take my anger out on the ex and her partner, I wouldn't have gained anything but a level of instant satisfaction.

Despite the anger I listened to advice and said nothing. It's a same cupcakes ex didn't as exposing that , despite her natural feelings, publicly to his friends and family was way across the line.

That’s some self control there. I’m pretty sure I would have torn into the like a platoon of coked up Tysons.

[xjay1337]

8.4L 154 said:

It seems really odd the way a large number of people wonder into this thread with little knowledge of the subject and then proceed to tell those who do know it inside out that they're wrong and then complain about it being shoved down their throats.

Most odd. Perhaps stop, ask respectful questions, then listen and learn. And if you think this thread is shoving trans down your throat because there are a half dozen trans people contributing and responding to quite personal questions, then perhaps the thread is not for you.

This thread, though, is for discussion - it is not a Q&A on all things trans.
It is a thread to debate the trans gender movement, issues about sexuality, etc, and other topics, starting specifically relating to the weird pro nouns some insist on using. However the conversation has long since moved on.

While being a member of the trans community will bring it's own valuable insight, just because someone is trans does not make them right on trans matters.
Same as those people who say "UNTIL YOU HAVE A KID YOU CAN'T TALK TO ME ABOUT RAISING A CHILD".... well, Debby, I can, because you're a cock and your kid eats nothing but Turkey Dinosaurs .

Again because people are a bit thick in here, so I need to be explicit, I am not calling anyone in the trans community a cock.

[descentia]

'

Edited by descentia on Sunday 31st March 22:21

[descentia]

'

Edited by descentia on Sunday 31st March 22:22

[j_4m]

descentia said:

The transgender community you allude to doesn't really exist. The word transgender has developed into meaning everything from the occasional transvestite through to those who transition medically and everything in between.
When I transitioned the word transgender didn't exist except in a few academics heads, so even for the people directly concerned there's been a change in language which some aren't comfortable with.
I've no idea how many non binary people are out there but I can't imagine it's many so when coming across them the adjustment of how to address them isn't that difficult for me. I can understand how for those who haven't much contact with LGBT people that talk of new language being imposed upon them is likely to cause upset. Personally I don't see there being any new law introduced imposing new language just for use of non binary people, there might be amendments to existing legislation to add protections to NBs but I can't see anything changing.

I think the transgender ‘community’ that haunts any discussion like this is most likely the shouty American students who seem to dominate the internet. People like this don’t really exist in the real world and it’s not fair to judge transgender people by what a tiny minority post on Tumblr, or by Huffington Post clickbait. The impression I get from the posts on here is that really all transgender people want is to live out their lives without persecution, not redefine the very fabric of human society.

[gregs656]

The shoving it down peoples throats (so to speak) is a difficult one.

On the one hand if you are unfront about it, talk about it a lot etc you never really have to ‘come out’. Indeed it avoids many of the concerns of the last handful of pages.

On the other hand it means the one who are really up front and broadcast their opinions are seen as ‘shoving it down peoples throats’ - and these people tend to be how every one else in that community is defined (confirmation bias).

This is why some gay and bisexual men are critical of your stereotypical effeminate gay men because they own the narrative of what it is to be gay, and are the ones accused of shoving their sexuality down peoples throats. Which IMO ignores how powerful it has been to have an ‘out’ group in terms of social acceptsbility.

It’s a no win situation really, at least in the short term.