The Gender Non-binary debate.

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_dobbo_

11,287 posts

187 months

Friday 15th March
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j_4m said:
Halb said:
Have you read, MOnstrous Regiment?
A quote from it, 'And a woman by herself is missing a man, while a man by himself is his own master.
Trousers. That's the secret. Trousers and a pair of socks. I never dreamed it was like this. Put on trousers and the world changes. We walk different. We act different. I see these girls and I think: Idiot's Get yourself some trousers!'
biggrin
Great book, good old fashioned silliness with a sharp satire stick.
Pratchett was wonderful

"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green"

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
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I do love a bit of pTerry.

“Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this, Ridcully reflected as the council grumbled on, would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to choose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
Indeed, as a goddess she would have lots of shoes, and thus many choices: comfy shoes for home truths, hobnail boots for unpleasant truths, simple clogs for universal truths, and possibly some kind of slipper for self-evident truth.”

InitialDave

4,359 posts

58 months

Friday 15th March
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Funnily enough, I think before he became more famous, Terry Pratchett's gender-neutral first name did result in him getting a few fan letters that assumed he was female, particularly regarding Equal Rites.

George Smiley said:
Gecko, come back from a date after you've fked a trans without know g then tell me my scenario isn't a risk
I'll work on what I feel is the fairly solid basis that it isn't a risk until I come back from a date having fked "a trans" without knowing.

George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Friday 15th March
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Clockwork Cupcake said:
George Smiley said:
Yes they do
Only in your nightmares / fantasies.

In reality, they don't.
You, world boss and 8.4L all stated that the trans person doesn't have to declare their previous genital state - your own words.

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
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George Smiley said:
You, world boss and 8.4L all stated that the trans person doesn't have to declare their previous genital state - your own words.
So?

There is a huge leap between that statement and us being duplicitous predators out to actively trick transphobic men into having sex with us.



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gregs656

2,491 posts

120 months

Friday 15th March
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George Smiley said:
You, world boss and 8.4L all stated that the trans person doesn't have to declare their previous genital state - your own words.
I am not going to tell you what to post, but since protesting that you were not obsessed with this you have posted about nothing else.

desolate

16,975 posts

167 months

Friday 15th March
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gregs656 said:
I am not going to tell you what to post, but since protesting that you were not obsessed with this you have posted about nothing else.
To be honest I am impressed.

For someone typing one handed his spelling is pretty good.

George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Friday 15th March
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gregs656 said:
I am not going to tell you what to post, but since protesting that you were not obsessed with this you have posted about nothing else.
I'm not you going to tell you what to read, but go back 100 pages. In black and white it is there, yet I'm not allowed to mention it when I'm questioned if I trust a trans to be open about their situation?

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
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George Smiley said:
I'm not you going to tell you what to read, but go back 100 pages. In black and white it is there, yet I'm not allowed to mention it when I'm questioned if I trust a trans to be open about their situation?
Not allowed to mention it? Jesus Christ, it's all you seem to do in this thread.

How many more times are you going to flog this dead horse? You've had your question answered umpteen times.

You've also been advised multiple times that referring to a trans person as "a trans" is offensive, yet you doggedly persist in doing so. I can only conclude that you are now doing it deliberately.

Do you actually have anything else to contribute to this thread?


descentia

116 posts

74 months

Friday 15th March
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George Smiley said:
I'm not you going to tell you what to read, but go back 100 pages. In black and white it is there, yet I'm not allowed to mention it when I'm questioned if I trust a trans to be open about their situation?
Oh dear George, it's not going in is it ? There is no such thing as a trans. Adjective not a noun. If you are going to insist on trolling then do it properly and use teh trans That's how the real haters do it , maybe you're not a proper troll at all and just having a laugh. Possibly after a bit of adult entertainment of the trans kind ?

I don't get your obsession with the whole scenario you have going on, first you appear here saying oh I'm on my own coz my missus has left me and I fear sh--ging some trans woman and now your partner is back and you are still running the tragic trans women misled me fantasy with her evil feminine ways.
One has to wonder how you've reached such a state of despair.



Edited by descentia on Friday 15th March 23:53

8.4L 154

4,558 posts

192 months

Friday 15th March
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Vealie said:
8.4L 154 said:
Vealie said:
What's your take then 8.4L?

The equality act says;

"There are six main areas set out in the Equality Act 2010 that acknowledge the need for women-only spaces, services, roles and activities and makes it lawful to exclude males (including trans-identifying males). In all cases the use of an exemption must be a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim. There are no blanket rules since each situation must be considered on its own merits and due regard must be given to all groups affected by invoking the exemption. The least discriminatory option must always be chosen.

Single-sex services, Occupational requirements, Communal accommodation, Gender-affected activities, Single-characteristic associations, Women-only shortlists(applicable to political parties only)"

Right enough it doesn't mention toilets specifically and I concede that they are a grey area but it clearly lays out exemptions as above.

What's your case law? I want to educate myself.

For the lurkers.....I just admitted I might be wrong. Ever heard that from a trans ally?

Interesting that the person who came into this thread shouting about sea lioning is demanding evidence!

But anyway, that's not really a quote or text from the Equality act, its an interpretation (with added transphobia) from one of the Anti Trans Political Lobby groups. Having said that they do seem to have captured the important parts where use of exemptions has to be justified as a proportionate means to a legitimate aim. I can't however for the life of me see how it supports your claim that a GRC is required to access single sex spaces. Especially given guidance from the EHRC has explicitly stated the opposite and made it clear the expectation of the EQ act is inclusion of trans people in their experienced gender and "proportionate means to legitimate aim" is in very restricted circumstances and on a case by case basis.






And for the record the Equality act actually defines a person as having the "gender reassignment" protected characteristic as

EQ Act 2010 said:
A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.






Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 15th March 10:27
Sorry!

One last thing. The EHRC screenshots above are not the latest take on this issue from the EHRC. They issued the following statement last year. This was intended to clear up confusion on the subject of transgender people and single-sex exemptions.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/ne...

The key passage for CC and 8.4L is as follows; (and from an unimpeachable source)

"Certain exceptions in the Act set out circumstances in which it is permissible to treat someone differently because of their sex or gender reassignment, for reasons of public policy or to protect the rights of others. The use of such exceptions generally needs to be justified as being a proportionate way to achieve a legitimate objective. This will often require a case-by-case approach to determine what is legitimate and proportionate in any given circumstance.

Under the Act, the protection from gender reassignment discrimination applies to all trans people who are proposing to go, are undergoing or have undergone (part of) a process of gender reassignment. At the same time, a trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC."

'....apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC'. Toilets are still a grey area but this is quite clear when considering the sex-based exemptions.

8.4L. Something to think about at least?

Back to lurking.......
Your link to the EHRC may be dated as recently as July 2018 and relevant to their contribution to the Scottish GRA consultation. but they also subsequentially made statements relating to the England and Wales GRA consultation and also further policy statements in the autumn followed by a FOI disclosure this year showing they are/have reviewed and updated their entire guidance on the matter. That is why I quite deliberately included in the screen shot of the second image the last updated date (feb 2019) with the expectation of just such a challenge from you. The advise in the second image is only 1 month old and clearly indicates that trans people should be treated in regards to single sex spaces as their acquired gender unless in restricted circumstances it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim not to do so.

Where the GRC comes in is only in reference to the comparator for sex discrimination, it is not relevant to gender reassignment discrimination as both a GRC and non GRC holder have the gender reassignment protected characteristic regardless. In effect it shifts the bar higher for legal use of exceptions for GRC holders.

The very premise of the Equality act is against discrimination rather than the claims of anti trans political lobby groups of "sex based rights". The default position is that trans people are not discriminated against due to gender reassignment and this means the default position is they are treated the same as their acquired gender unless it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim not to do so. As has been said by the EHRC the GRC forms part of the evidence base for discrimination in single sex spaces but all of the specific circumstances are relevant as a whole in coming to a decision about if treatment is a lawful exception or discrimination.

Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 15th March 22:39

descentia

116 posts

74 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Yes they do
You wrote the above in reply to the following question....

Do you *really* think that trans women prey on men like you, trying to dupe them into sex with them? Honestly?


So as a george what do you propose is done to stop that happening. Maybe some identifying marks, a coloured badge perhaps to be worn on clothing ?

George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
descentia said:
George Smiley said:
Yes they do
You wrote the above in reply to the following question....

Do you *really* think that trans women prey on men like you, trying to dupe them into sex with them? Honestly?


So as a george what do you propose is done to stop that happening. Maybe some identifying marks, a coloured badge perhaps to be worn on clothing ?
Why stop there? You coukd offer gov't housing in a walled estate, bravo on turning the plight of trans people to that of ww2 jews.

descentia

116 posts

74 months

Friday 15th March
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George Smiley said:
Why stop there? You coukd offer gov't housing in a walled estate, bravo on turning the plight of trans people to that of ww2 jews.
Well you're the one demanding to know and I thought you might like to be reminded that history has some examples of the thinking that you are demonstrating.
So don't try turning it around as if you are a victim, you're the one insisting on protection from those you consider unworthy.

George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Saturday 16th March
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There's a world of difference between the persecution of the Jews in ww2, using markings to point then out, and simply asking trans people to identify the fact prior to sex.

descentia

116 posts

74 months

Saturday 16th March
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George Smiley said:
There's a world of difference between the persecution of the Jews in ww2, using markings to point then out, and simply asking trans people to identify the fact prior to sex.
Your use of "simply" is rather disingenuous because as you've stated previously you consider trans women to be men and the thought of any sexual contact with them as a homosexual act. Also add to that your repeated accusations that they are predatory and prepared to deceive, lie and cheat to have sex with you which you equate to being sexually assaulted by them. Your stated disgust for trans people shows exactly the same feelings as the Nazis did for people they considered not human. Your repeated use of it, the trans and other insults shows you to be an intolerant, homophobic, bigoted waste of space.

You could "simply" ask me if I was trans a thousand times and I would "simply" tell you it's none of your f--king business each and every time.

Now, Mike, you can ps off to flying your drone over Cherwell ..

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

or even better learn something from your visit to Auschwitz about persecution of those not considered by others to be normal

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiMbN7l8hB2VC_epx...







George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Saturday 16th March
quotequote all
descentia said:
George Smiley said:
There's a world of difference between the persecution of the Jews in ww2, using markings to point then out, and simply asking trans people to identify the fact prior to sex.
Your use of "simply" is rather disingenuous because as you've stated previously you consider trans women to be men and the thought of any sexual contact with them as a homosexual act. Also add to that your repeated accusations that they are predatory and prepared to deceive, lie and cheat to have sex with you which you equate to being sexually assaulted by them. Your stated disgust for trans people shows exactly the same feelings as the Nazis did for people they considered not human. Your repeated use of it, the trans and other insults shows you to be an intolerant, homophobic, bigoted waste of space.

You could "simply" ask me if I was trans a thousand times and I would "simply" tell you it's none of your f--king business each and every time.

Now, Mike, you can ps off to flying your drone over Cherwell ..

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

or even better learn something from your visit to Auschwitz about persecution of those not considered by others to be normal

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiMbN7l8hB2VC_epx...





That's some serious stalking/sleuth work there and not a very good way to try and stop me from having a valid view. You just vindicate the issue I and others have on this thread with yours and others approach. Well done.

At no point have I said anything of the sort that trans women are men, I have stated several times I see them as women BUT would not choose to sleep with one because in my mind it would still be sleeping with a man. That is a difference to saying trans women are just men. I clearly stated ages ago I would not discriminate against or treat differently to a woman OTHER than where it comes to sex. This entire bloody argument started when you and others said that there is no requirement to inform a potential male partner, which I believe is fundamentally wrong.

I see back in the region of p160 that trans people are comparing themselves to the persecuted jews from ww2 which is a shocking claim to make, I don't think there is any such link but ironically you bring this up here


Edited by George Smiley on Saturday 16th March 03:17

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Saturday 16th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
That's some serious stalking/sleuth work there and not a very good way to try and stop me from having a valid view. You just vindicate the issue I and others have on this thread with yours and others approach. Well done.
I do not condone the stalking/sleuthing, and I very much object to the implied "guilt by association" by your use of "and others".

George Smiley said:
At no point have I said anything of the sort that trans women are men, I have stated several times I see them as women BUT would not choose to sleep with one because in my mind it would still be sleeping with a man. That is a difference to saying trans women are just men.
Huh? You deny saying that trans women are men, but you would not sleep with one because that would be sleeping with a man. And saying that sleeping with a trans woman is sleeping with a man is somehow different to saying that a trans woman is a man, despite the fact that your reason for not sleeping with a trans woman is that it would be sleeping with a man. But you don't see trans women as men despite seeing trans women as men.

That's some Grade A hair-splitting logic there.

I don't really understand in what way you "see them as women" when you state that in your mind they are men.

You can perhaps understand why people are under the impression that you think of trans women as men when you state that "in [your] mind it would still be sleeping with a man".


Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 16th March 08:49

8.4L 154

4,558 posts

192 months

Saturday 16th March
quotequote all
I think before GS went off on one about misappropriating the suffering of Jews in Nazi Germany he should have at least gone off and Googled the pink triangle and Magnus Hirschfeld and the burning of LGBT texts and taken particular note of the losses to the trans community of the era.

Here I'll make it easy for him
https://hornet.com/stories/nazis-trans-rights/

What trans people are seeing today with the constant onslaught in the media and attempts to turn back trans rights is frighteningly similar to the precursor to that period of history.

Buggles

1,780 posts

127 months

Saturday 16th March
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Clockwork Cupcake said:
Huh? You deny saying that trans women are men, but you would not sleep with one because that would be sleeping with a man. And saying that sleeping with a trans woman is sleeping with a man is somehow different to saying that a trans woman is a man, despite the fact that you wouldn't sleep with a trans woman because it would be sleeping with a man. But you don't see trans women as men despite seeing trans women as men.

That's some Grade A hair-splitting logic there.

I don't really understand in what way you "see them as women" when you state that in your mind they are men.

You can perhaps understand why people are under the impression that you think of trans women as men when you state that "in [your] mind it would still be sleeping with a man".

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 16th March 08:48
I would guess that he's saying that he's happy to respect a trans woman's right to be recognized as a woman, but would feel uncomfortable having sexual relations with someone that was born a man.

I can see where he's coming from, and in my opinion that's fair enough. Whether that's a situation that's likely to happen, is a whole different matter!