The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
I thought of a question today JJ. I hope it doesn't sound clumsy, and I think I know the answers, but just to clarify.
You have stated that you're in to men (correct me if you're bi-sexual) and you presumably were before your transition. At that point you would therefore have been a gay man, so now you identify yourself as female would I therefore be correct in presuming that you now identify as straight?
A slightly irrelevant point, as you mentioned that currently you have very little/no interest in sex.
You have stated that you're in to men (correct me if you're bi-sexual) and you presumably were before your transition. At that point you would therefore have been a gay man, so now you identify yourself as female would I therefore be correct in presuming that you now identify as straight?
A slightly irrelevant point, as you mentioned that currently you have very little/no interest in sex.
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
I thought of a question today JJ. I hope it doesn't sound clumsy, and I think I know the answers, but just to clarify.
You have stated that you're in to men (correct me if you're bi-sexual) and you presumably were before your transition. At that point you would therefore have been a gay man, so now you identify yourself as female would I therefore be correct in presuming that you now identify as straight?
A slightly irrelevant point, as you mentioned that currently you have very little/no interest in sex.
I've always been bisexual - or, rather, I've always tended to just fancy who I fancy. So it's not really an issue for me. You have stated that you're in to men (correct me if you're bi-sexual) and you presumably were before your transition. At that point you would therefore have been a gay man, so now you identify yourself as female would I therefore be correct in presuming that you now identify as straight?
A slightly irrelevant point, as you mentioned that currently you have very little/no interest in sex.
But, yes, I can certainly see the confusion it may cause. Certainly some trans women find themselves as effectively lesbians once transitioned. As do their partners, if the formerly heterosexual relationship continues.
Funny old world, eh?
Noodle1982 said:
An example i gave earlier in the thread....you are in the work place and you have a transgender person and a jehovah witness (other religions are available). The jehovah witness refuses point blankly to aknowledge the trans person as anything but their biological sex.
What happens then? Continuous misgendering, according to some posters in this thread, is a hate crime.
What about their religion precludes them from gendering someone correctly?What happens then? Continuous misgendering, according to some posters in this thread, is a hate crime.
Davos123 said:
Noodle1982 said:
An example i gave earlier in the thread....you are in the work place and you have a transgender person and a jehovah witness (other religions are available). The jehovah witness refuses point blankly to aknowledge the trans person as anything but their biological sex.
What happens then? Continuous misgendering, according to some posters in this thread, is a hate crime.
What about their religion precludes them from gendering someone correctly?What happens then? Continuous misgendering, according to some posters in this thread, is a hate crime.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Noodle1982 said:
Still to this day i am yet to discover what privileges i have over other people simply for being a white male.
You don't recognise them because you take them for granted and consider them normal. Like a lot of things, you don't know what you have until you find yourself without it.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
I thought of a question today JJ. I hope it doesn't sound clumsy, and I think I know the answers, but just to clarify.
You have stated that you're in to men (correct me if you're bi-sexual) and you presumably were before your transition. At that point you would therefore have been a gay man, so now you identify yourself as female would I therefore be correct in presuming that you now identify as straight?
A slightly irrelevant point, as you mentioned that currently you have very little/no interest in sex.
I've always been bisexual - or, rather, I've always tended to just fancy who I fancy. So it's not really an issue for me. You have stated that you're in to men (correct me if you're bi-sexual) and you presumably were before your transition. At that point you would therefore have been a gay man, so now you identify yourself as female would I therefore be correct in presuming that you now identify as straight?
A slightly irrelevant point, as you mentioned that currently you have very little/no interest in sex.
But, yes, I can certainly see the confusion it may cause. Certainly some trans women find themselves as effectively lesbians once transitioned. As do their partners, if the formerly heterosexual relationship continues.
Funny old world, eh?
gregs656 said:
Noodle1982 said:
It goes against their beliefs.
That’s not quite right. They wouldn’t admit a transgender person, but I’m not sure they would be compelled not to recognise someone as transgender any less than they might recognise someone is gay.
But all is not lost as he also said they offer conversion therapy.....
Noodle1982 said:
My original question many moons ago was after a discussion with a Jehovah in work. He made it perfectly clear that he, and many of their followers, would not use the person's chosen pronouns.
But all is not lost as he also said they offer conversion therapy.....
Ok. But all is not lost as he also said they offer conversion therapy.....
This is a group of people who kick their kids out of homes for being gay, though, and generally restrict contact with people who aren’t in it.
Or a cult, if you want to use the short hand.
They struggle with many things. Perhaps you should ask him whether he would let his children have a blood transfusion if it would save their life for example?
My point remains that you could take any number of examples in society and say ‘what would a Jehovah do’ and the answer will often be unpalatable to people not in the cult, and probably not what Jesus would do, either.
gregs656 said:
Noodle1982 said:
My original question many moons ago was after a discussion with a Jehovah in work. He made it perfectly clear that he, and many of their followers, would not use the person's chosen pronouns.
But all is not lost as he also said they offer conversion therapy.....
Ok. But all is not lost as he also said they offer conversion therapy.....
This is a group of people who kick their kids out of homes for being gay, though, and generally restrict contact with people who aren’t in it.
Or a cult, if you want to use the short hand.
They struggle with many things. Perhaps you should ask him whether he would let his children have a blood transfusion if it would save their life for example?
My point remains that you could take any number of examples in society and say ‘what would a Jehovah do’ and the answer will often be unpalatable to people not in the cult, and probably not what Jesus would do, either.
My point is of all the views they hold the one that would cause the biggest issue would be the whole misgendering.
They could tell a gay person that they think homosexuality is wrong. Ok, fine that's an opinion. You're not going to change their mind.
They could express their views on blood transfusions. People would be bemused.
They could explain how they shun members of their own family for various sins. That's religion for you, its bonkers.
They could refuse to acknowledge someone by their chosen pronouns. Twitter outrage, police investigation, H.R dillema (if in the workplace), potential criminal case, possible fine....the list goes on.
Sexuality is a protected characteristic too, I think practically that is more likely to be an issue.
Refusing to save their children’s lives also.
The reason people are under the impression they are a benign lot though is they generally run along with the rest of us, though, so for all your guys suppositions of what might happen I think the reality in the workplace might be different.
Refusing to save their children’s lives also.
The reason people are under the impression they are a benign lot though is they generally run along with the rest of us, though, so for all your guys suppositions of what might happen I think the reality in the workplace might be different.
Noodle1982 said:
Can you give me some examples of my white male privileges.
UK only or in the western world?Not having a typically black name on your CV makes you more likely to get an interview for a job.
You are much less likely to be stopped and searched by the police or pulled over whilst driving.
People don't treat you with suspicion by default.
You learn about your culture and history in school and it glosses over the atrocities committed by people who look like you against those who don't.
You're unlikely to have the police called on you for behaving lawfully compared to a PoC.
You're much less likely to be sexually assaulted than a woman.
You will face fewer barriers in your career than a woman, generally speaking.
Just a starter...
Davos123 said:
Noodle1982 said:
Can you give me some examples of my white male privileges.
UK only or in the western world?Not having a typically black name on your CV makes you more likely to get an interview for a job.
You are much less likely to be stopped and searched by the police or pulled over whilst driving.
People don't treat you with suspicion by default.
You learn about your culture and history in school and it glosses over the atrocities committed by people who look like you against those who don't.
You're unlikely to have the police called on you for behaving lawfully compared to a PoC.
You're much less likely to be sexually assaulted than a woman.
You will face fewer barriers in your career than a woman, generally speaking.
Just a starter...
Males have a higher suicide rate than females
18yr old women are 35% more likely to attend university than 18yr old males
37% of black school leavers attend university. Only 28% of white school leavers do
Women between the ages of 22-29yrs old earn more than men in the same age bracket
In Britain the least successful demographic is the white male
....the list can go on and on.
It's so easy to pick and choose stats and facts to back up your argument.
White male privilege is a load of bulls
t spouted by the liberals and professionally offended. Noodle1982 said:
I had many conversations with him. My idea of Jehovah's being a friendly bunch that wake you up on a Sunday morning changed drastically. They are quite a sinister lot.
My point is of all the views they hold the one that would cause the biggest issue would be the whole misgendering.
They could tell a gay person that they think homosexuality is wrong. Ok, fine that's an opinion. You're not going to change their mind.
They could express their views on blood transfusions. People would be bemused.
They could explain how they shun members of their own family for various sins. That's religion for you, its bonkers.
All of these are expressing disapproval. They are a passive reaction (as in, they can express disapproval, but they can't do much about it). My point is of all the views they hold the one that would cause the biggest issue would be the whole misgendering.
They could tell a gay person that they think homosexuality is wrong. Ok, fine that's an opinion. You're not going to change their mind.
They could express their views on blood transfusions. People would be bemused.
They could explain how they shun members of their own family for various sins. That's religion for you, its bonkers.
If he was introduced to a gay man's husband, and retorted "No you're not! You're not his husband. You're just his friend. Because there is no such thing as being gay" then you'd quite rightly expect the husband to say "I *am* his husband, and I have the Marriage Certificate to prove it and it's backed up by UK law, you swivel-eyed loon". If every time he then saw the two men holding hands or displaying affection to each other, or even just in the vicinity of each other, he said that it was wrong and they should be ashamed, and should stop, then you wouldn't expect the gay couple to have to put up with that. That would be harassment, and you'd have a hard time arguing otherwise.
Noodle1982 said:
They could refuse to acknowledge someone by their chosen pronouns. Twitter outrage, police investigation, H.R dillema (if in the workplace), potential criminal case, possible fine....the list goes on.
The list goes on, and so do you. 
Unlike all your other examples, this one would be ongoing and active. It's the only one that is, in addition to disapproving of, he could be active and do something about, by continuously misgendering and dead-naming someone. It's an active persecution, rather than a passive disapproval. It's harassment.
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