The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
George Smiley said:
Reminds me of when wsb limited 4cyl bikes to 750cc and let reins be 1000cc
On paper you could calculate the theoretical performance but in truth it destroyed the competition and only twins could win
4cyl being women
Twin being trans women in this example
It is much more complicated even before you start talking about trans competitors. On paper you could calculate the theoretical performance but in truth it destroyed the competition and only twins could win
4cyl being women
Twin being trans women in this example
Personally I would not want to see a situation like we have in the paralympics where lines are drawn in the sand based on ability, and this can be revised almost overnight (this happened to a friend of mine and basically made her not-competative) - although I completely understand the requirement for that in that context I don't want to see something similar in the olympics etc and I don't think there is a way of having transgender competitors without it.
In regards to trans-atheletes in sports, I agree with CC that it should be left up to the Governing bodies of individual sports. They're presumbly the experts in their sports, and they can for themselves decide on how much trans- athletes might impact fairness in the sport.
I think that over time, as more and more trans- kids grow up and have interventions to delay puberty etc, the issue may not be such a problem.
I think that over time, as more and more trans- kids grow up and have interventions to delay puberty etc, the issue may not be such a problem.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Algarve said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
I thought it was quite disgusting that an ex male was allowed to compete in a sport that involves punching people in the face. It was ridiculously unfair.
Off topic, but I think that a sport that involves punching people in the face is pretty disgusting full stop. I thought it was quite disgusting that an ex male was allowed to compete in a sport that involves punching people in the face. It was ridiculously unfair.
Theres a reason men can't fight women, the same reason why there are weight classes when men fight other men or women fight women.
Fallon Fox is a man from a sporting point of view. Regardless of what she regards herself as.
And you can't rely on sports on self regulate this stuff as they effectively treated it like a freak show as they knew people would tune in. The organiser has no credibility whatsoever... if they did they wouldn't have let her opponent walk to the ring to Aerosmiths "dude looks like a lady".
Algarve said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Algarve said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
I thought it was quite disgusting that an ex male was allowed to compete in a sport that involves punching people in the face. It was ridiculously unfair.
Off topic, but I think that a sport that involves punching people in the face is pretty disgusting full stop. I thought it was quite disgusting that an ex male was allowed to compete in a sport that involves punching people in the face. It was ridiculously unfair.
Theres a reason men can't fight women, the same reason why there are weight classes when men fight other men or women fight women.
Fallon Fox is a man from a sporting point of view. Regardless of what she regards herself as.
And you can't rely on sports on self regulate this stuff as they effectively treated it like a freak show as they knew people would tune in. The organiser has no credibility whatsoever... if they did they wouldn't have let her opponent walk to the ring to Aerosmiths "dude looks like a lady".
Anecdotally on your second point, I teach/train jujutsu in mixed classes (I say mixed, probably less than 5% of our students are women) and there is a massive difference in aggression between the men and women. A good proportion of men have an innate ability to fight and a much higher drive to 'win' in whatever shape that may take; the women will tap out of strangles sooner, the men tend to hold on until they're about to go unconscious.
8.4L 154 said:
The rules changed in 2016 though - now transgender athletes can enter without having had sex reassignment surgery: 
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-....
It'll be interesting to see how this affects the numbers competing.
Gooseberry said:
The rules changed in 2016 though - now transgender athletes can enter without having had sex reassignment surgery:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-....
It'll be interesting to see how this affects the numbers competing.
It's never really been an issue because of the very small number of transgender people among the general population, it's hard enough finding people with the elite genetic makeup necessary to be an Olympian, the chance of them also being transgender are very small. Whilst I wouldn't put it past certain countries with proven histories of prolific cheating to 'gender dope' I can't see it really taking off, much like the pregnancy doping rumours.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-....
It'll be interesting to see how this affects the numbers competing.
Women are absolutely hopeless compared to men at sports though. Thats not politically correct of course but its also undeniably true.
Its only going to take one very average male athlete to become a female athlete and wipe the floor with all the natural born ladies.
If its track/field type stuff then fair enough but there is no way it should be allowed in the example above of punching people in the face.
Its only going to take one very average male athlete to become a female athlete and wipe the floor with all the natural born ladies.
If its track/field type stuff then fair enough but there is no way it should be allowed in the example above of punching people in the face.
j_4m said:
Anecdotally on your second point, I teach/train jujutsu in mixed classes (I say mixed, probably less than 5% of our students are women) and there is a massive difference in aggression between the men and women. A good proportion of men have an innate ability to fight and a much higher drive to 'win' in whatever shape that may take; the women will tap out of strangles sooner, the men tend to hold on until they're about to go unconscious.
Some of that could be down to testosterone though. Anecdotally, I have a trans friend who is on female hormones and she says that when she has an argument with her wife, whereas before she would get aggressive and angry, and experience the "red mist", now she generally bursts into tears and they end up hugging and sorting things out rather than continuing a blazing row.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Some of that could be down to testosterone though.
Anecdotally, I have a trans friend who is on female hormones and she says that when she has an argument with her wife, whereas before she would get aggressive and angry, and experience the "red mist", now she generally bursts into tears and they end up hugging and sorting things out rather than continuing a blazing row.
For sure, hormones do crazy things to our brains. The science seems to think it's something to do with the amygdala being larger in men and there's also plenty of anecdotal evidence out there from people on TRT, HRT or just plain recreational steroid use that testify (hah) to adjusting the balance of sex hormones shifting their behaviour.Anecdotally, I have a trans friend who is on female hormones and she says that when she has an argument with her wife, whereas before she would get aggressive and angry, and experience the "red mist", now she generally bursts into tears and they end up hugging and sorting things out rather than continuing a blazing row.
I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete in sports with biological women. There's a lot more to it than just testosterone levels, and the short answer is I don't think there's a way for it to be made fair. There are performance advantages inherent to being born and developing as male which are not negated if you later become transgender.
However, I really don't like how it's characterised by some who nominally share my opinion, with stuff like "cheating" and "men pretending to be women in order to win". That's just unnecessary, and I think such attitudes aren't at all helpful to the debate. It should just be about whether it's fair competition.
If someone can come up with a metric by which things can be kept fair, yep, crack on with it, no problem at all. I'd actively want that, as being trans shouldn't be a barrier to being able to compete in sports - it just shouldn't confer you an advantage if you do, and at present, that seems to be a problem.
However, I really don't like how it's characterised by some who nominally share my opinion, with stuff like "cheating" and "men pretending to be women in order to win". That's just unnecessary, and I think such attitudes aren't at all helpful to the debate. It should just be about whether it's fair competition.
If someone can come up with a metric by which things can be kept fair, yep, crack on with it, no problem at all. I'd actively want that, as being trans shouldn't be a barrier to being able to compete in sports - it just shouldn't confer you an advantage if you do, and at present, that seems to be a problem.
InitialDave said:
However, I really don't like how it's characterised by some [...] with stuff like "cheating" and "men pretending to be women in order to win". That's just unnecessary, and I think such attitudes aren't at all helpful to the debate. It should just be about whether it's fair competition.
If someone can come up with a metric by which things can be kept fair, yep, crack on with it, no problem at all. I'd actively want that, as being trans shouldn't be a barrier to being able to compete in sports - it just shouldn't confer you an advantage if you do, and at present, that seems to be a problem.
I agree, actually. If someone can come up with a metric by which things can be kept fair, yep, crack on with it, no problem at all. I'd actively want that, as being trans shouldn't be a barrier to being able to compete in sports - it just shouldn't confer you an advantage if you do, and at present, that seems to be a problem.
I mean, I agree with what I have quoted of your post. I don't ultimately agree with you that trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete. But I definitely agree with what I have quoted.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
I agree, actually.
I mean, I agree with what I have quoted of your post. I don't ultimately agree with you that trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete. But I definitely agree with what I have quoted.
Yeah, that's fair enough. As I said, if I felt it was running on a metric that was fair, I'd be fine with it. I think the current metric generally used - both in that it concentrates on testosterone levels, as well as what those levels are - isn't fair.I mean, I agree with what I have quoted of your post. I don't ultimately agree with you that trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete. But I definitely agree with what I have quoted.
When I say I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete with biological women, that's on the basis of how things are right this minute with the rules that are being applied, not an absolute never-ever kind of thing. There's quite possibly an answer that has yet to present itself.
InitialDave said:
Yeah, that's fair enough. As I said, if I felt it was running on a metric that was fair, I'd be fine with it. I think the current metric generally used - both in that it concentrates on testosterone levels, as well as what those levels are - isn't fair.
When I say I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete with biological women, that's on the basis of how things are right this minute with the rules that are being applied, not an absolute never-ever kind of thing. There's quite possibly an answer that has yet to present itself.
Indeed. When I say I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete with biological women, that's on the basis of how things are right this minute with the rules that are being applied, not an absolute never-ever kind of thing. There's quite possibly an answer that has yet to present itself.
Noodle1982 said:
A gay transgender man and his story of giving birth. Ticked every label there!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6943105/G...
I know some of you won't click the link but the headline pretty much sums it up.
This brought up a question. He transitioned when he was 20. He is now 32. Trans folk say they were born in the wrong body. If so why do some hold onto, in this case, the most female part of a females body if that body isn't the right one?
Surely if you were born female and that body felt wrong the last thing you would want to do is to carry a baby.
Just goes to Show a lot of this is attention seeking and a decline in Western society. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6943105/G...
I know some of you won't click the link but the headline pretty much sums it up.
This brought up a question. He transitioned when he was 20. He is now 32. Trans folk say they were born in the wrong body. If so why do some hold onto, in this case, the most female part of a females body if that body isn't the right one?
Surely if you were born female and that body felt wrong the last thing you would want to do is to carry a baby.
PorkRind said:
Noodle1982 said:
A gay transgender man and his story of giving birth. Ticked every label there!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6943105/G...
I know some of you won't click the link but the headline pretty much sums it up.
This brought up a question. He transitioned when he was 20. He is now 32. Trans folk say they were born in the wrong body. If so why do some hold onto, in this case, the most female part of a females body if that body isn't the right one?
Surely if you were born female and that body felt wrong the last thing you would want to do is to carry a baby.
Just goes to Show a lot of this is attention seeking and a decline in Western society. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6943105/G...
I know some of you won't click the link but the headline pretty much sums it up.
This brought up a question. He transitioned when he was 20. He is now 32. Trans folk say they were born in the wrong body. If so why do some hold onto, in this case, the most female part of a females body if that body isn't the right one?
Surely if you were born female and that body felt wrong the last thing you would want to do is to carry a baby.
He also ditched his HRT for the duration to do it so more like a 14+ month pregnancy than the usual 9.
Cisfolk make babies = meh, Transfolk make babies = war.
What if I were to make a baby? Would surdophobes give me s
t for it?Scottish Wyldcat said:
Cisfolk make babies = meh, Transfolk make babies = war.
What if I were to make a baby? Would surdophobes give me st for it?
You monster, how would you hear the baby crying, it's child abuse, etc etc etc. That should cover it for a start What if I were to make a baby? Would surdophobes give me s
t for it?
What this thread has shown us is that people will find a way to make any situation a bad situation if it suits their agenda.
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