The Gender Non-binary debate.

The Gender Non-binary debate.

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The Li-ion King

906 posts

9 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Bibbs said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
I found this news heart-warming, as merely a generation ago (EG mine a JJ's) this wouldn't have been welcomed with open arms.

My only fear is that he/she (I don't recall how they identify) was on the end of positive discrimination.

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/sch...
I'm more disturbed that the UK now has "College Proms" .. it's all a bit American isn't it?
In the last few years, something else that has gained traction over here, even the hiring of limo's to make an entrance for the big night, or in the case of the drag queen mentioned above, Arriva buses biggrin must have been a big enough car park to fit a Wright Streetlite in amongst the more common stretched Hummers or hired 7 series eek

His friends seem supportive. In the City of London, nearly every employer I have visited for work has been advertising Pride Month, and for most people I don't see them having issues with this... I saw a young guy leaving his office in a tartan pencil skirt, not obviously a kilt, but most people might have glanced but I think the days of yelling stuff or pointing are hopefully over. I think people have no problem with diversity but its the array of different terms that may throw them. Fashion is changing as well, and younger people are more open minded wink

cookie118

1,941 posts

99 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
BBC News - Transgender hate crimes recorded by police goes up 81%
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

Gecko1978

2,601 posts

102 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
cookie118 said:
BBC News - Transgender hate crimes recorded by police goes up 81%
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370
As we accept one group scum look for the next target irish>black>gay>muslim>trans etc. I did put forward the idea that if we want acceptance of everyone then that means also accepting negative views but with the caveats violence an incitement to violence are prohibited.

We have as a society come very far in acceptance of others, trans people are more open an society more aware which I believe is the driver behind the rise not a genuine hatred by wider society. The next group will be along soon enough to be a target of mindless hate

JagLover

26,020 posts

180 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Gecko1978 said:
cookie118 said:
BBC News - Transgender hate crimes recorded by police goes up 81%
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370
As we accept one group scum look for the next target irish>black>gay>muslim>trans etc. I did put forward the idea that if we want acceptance of everyone then that means also accepting negative views but with the caveats violence an incitement to violence are prohibited.

We have as a society come very far in acceptance of others, trans people are more open an society more aware which I believe is the driver behind the rise not a genuine hatred by wider society. The next group will be along soon enough to be a target of mindless hate
"Mis-gendering" someone is no doubt considered a "hate crime" so I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you.

Gecko1978

2,601 posts

102 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
JagLover said:
Gecko1978 said:
cookie118 said:
BBC News - Transgender hate crimes recorded by police goes up 81%
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370
As we accept one group scum look for the next target irish>black>gay>muslim>trans etc. I did put forward the idea that if we want acceptance of everyone then that means also accepting negative views but with the caveats violence an incitement to violence are prohibited.

We have as a society come very far in acceptance of others, trans people are more open an society more aware which I believe is the driver behind the rise not a genuine hatred by wider society. The next group will be along soon enough to be a target of mindless hate
"Mis-gendering" someone is no doubt considered a "hate crime" so I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you.
Jag is that my point there is not more real hate, there is a new target group and what we determine as hate is evolving so as one group becomes prominent we find more ways whixh cause offence etc. Less Trans-ageddon more easy targets for small minority

Halb

49,049 posts

128 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Just seen the trans-attacks story on the news. I would think as our culture becomes less restricted and people are 'allowed' to live as they feel they need to, the crimes will rise because before they just hid away, as other groups did beforehand. And as things go forward the sudden rush of crime will reduce and balance out.


George Smiley said:
I was beaten for being a "fag" as dicks at school heard I liked Queen.
they used that term?

Gooseberry

39 posts

28 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
JagLover said:
Gecko1978 said:
cookie118 said:
BBC News - Transgender hate crimes recorded by police goes up 81%
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370
As we accept one group scum look for the next target irish>black>gay>muslim>trans etc. I did put forward the idea that if we want acceptance of everyone then that means also accepting negative views but with the caveats violence an incitement to violence are prohibited.

We have as a society come very far in acceptance of others, trans people are more open an society more aware which I believe is the driver behind the rise not a genuine hatred by wider society. The next group will be along soon enough to be a target of mindless hate
"Mis-gendering" someone is no doubt considered a "hate crime" so I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you.
The police think it is so I think it's safe to assume they will add a reports of misgendering to their stats.

The CPS publishes stats on actual hate crime convictions in England and Wales, and these show a more hopeful trend (since 2017): there were 28 convictions for transphobic hate crime in 2014/2015, 68 in 2015/2016, 67 in 2016/2017 and 63 in 2017/2018.

Edited by Gooseberry on Thursday 27th June 15:30

andy_s

14,837 posts

204 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Did anyone read the Home Office report on hate crime that puts some other explanation into these figures...?

Davos123

5,586 posts

157 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Gooseberry said:
The police think it is so I think it's safe to assume they will add a reports of misgendering to their stats.

The CPS publishes stats on actual hate crime convictions in England and Wales, and these show a more hopeful trend (since 2017): there were 28 convictions for transphobic hate crime in 2014/2015, 68 in 2017/2018, 67 in 2016/2017 and 63 in 2017/2018.
That article doesn't say misgendering someone is a hate crime.

Gooseberry

39 posts

28 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Davos123 said:
Gooseberry said:
The police think it is so I think it's safe to assume they will add a reports of misgendering to their stats.

The CPS publishes stats on actual hate crime convictions in England and Wales, and these show a more hopeful trend (since 2017): there were 28 convictions for transphobic hate crime in 2014/2015, 68 in 2017/2018, 67 in 2016/2017 and 63 in 2017/2018.
That article doesn't say misgendering someone is a hate crime.
The article argues that it isn't, but it says the police guidance materials originally said this:

"Transphobia: The fear or dislike of someone based on their being trans, including the denial/refusal of their gender identity. Any incident of transphobia, any form of prejudice or hatred towards a person because of their actual or perceived transgender, is considered a transgender hate crime."

i.e. denial of gender identity = transphobia = hate crime.

But yes, it does say that they corrected it by removing the second sentence, so I see what you mean. Bit worrying it was ever there in to start with though.

gregs656

3,746 posts

126 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Gooseberry said:
The police think it is so I think it's safe to assume they will add a reports of misgendering to their stats.
Have you read that article?

It doesn't even include the word misgender.


Gooseberry

39 posts

28 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
gregs656 said:
Gooseberry said:
The police think it is so I think it's safe to assume they will add a reports of misgendering to their stats.
Have you read that article?

It doesn't even include the word misgender.
Misgendering is a denial/refusal of someones gender identity.

Davos123

5,586 posts

157 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Gooseberry said:
The article argues that it isn't, but it says the police guidance materials originally said this:

"Transphobia: The fear or dislike of someone based on their being trans, including the denial/refusal of their gender identity. Any incident of transphobia, any form of prejudice or hatred towards a person because of their actual or perceived transgender, is considered a transgender hate crime."

i.e. denial of gender identity = transphobia = hate crime.

But yes, it does say that they corrected it by removing the second sentence, so I see what you mean. Bit worrying it was ever there in to start with though.
1. Misgendering and denial of gender are not the same thing. Deliberately and gratuitously misgendering may be.

2. Police don't write laws.

gregs656

3,746 posts

126 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
andy_s said:
Did anyone read the Home Office report on hate crime that puts some other explanation into these figures...?
Do you have a link?

I think I would expect some uptick in reported cases but I'd like to read the insight. I expect some of it is people being more prepared to report these instances because they think they will be taken seriously now.

gregs656

3,746 posts

126 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Gooseberry said:
Misgendering is a denial/refusal of someones gender identity.
Not necessarily. If it was part of a pattern of behavior and other statements then it might be, but if it is unintentional or accidental then it wouldn't be.

Gooseberry

39 posts

28 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
gregs656 said:
Gooseberry said:
Misgendering is a denial/refusal of someones gender identity.
Not necessarily. If it was part of a pattern of behavior and other statements then it might be, but if it is unintentional or accidental then it wouldn't be.
Agreed, not necessarily. But if the trans person considered it to be deliberate, then they could report it as a denial of their gender identity.

gregs656

3,746 posts

126 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Gooseberry said:
Agreed, not necessarily. But if the trans person considered it to be deliberate, then they could report it as a denial of their gender identity.
There is no such thing in law as the crime of denial of gender identity.

Have you read the 2010 Equality Act?

Gooseberry

39 posts

28 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
gregs656 said:
Gooseberry said:
Agreed, not necessarily. But if the trans person considered it to be deliberate, then they could report it as a denial of their gender identity.
There is no such thing in law as the crime of denial of gender identity.

Have you read the 2010 Equality Act?
That was what the article was saying though: it isn't a hate crime, but the police considered it a hate crime.

gregs656

3,746 posts

126 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Gooseberry said:
That was what the article was saying though: it isn't a hate crime, but the police considered it a hate crime.
No, it doesn't say that. It says it could be an example of transphobia - indeed it is written under the heading 'Transphobia' and the article states quite clearly that

article said:
Homophobia and transphobia themselves are not crimes...

Gooseberry

39 posts

28 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
gregs656 said:
Gooseberry said:
That was what the article was saying though: it isn't a hate crime, but the police considered it a hate crime.
No, it doesn't say that. It says it could be an example of transphobia - indeed it is written under the heading 'Transphobia' and the article states quite clearly that

article said:
Homophobia and transphobia themselves are not crimes...
Re-read what I put :-)