The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
descentia said:
You're right, and it wasn't a perfect example, but the general societal perception is that women wear makeup and men do not. Makeup is a pure socialisation thing precisely because men can and do use it, pregnancy not so much, and whilst men can be the primary care givers to children it hasn't been until fairly recent history that it was practical for them to do so. To me those three things are examples of socialisation, biology, and a bit of both.Rivenink said:
Would you consider a male having sexual relations with a trans-woman a homosexual act?
And does it depend on whether *you* believe them to be a woman, whether *they* believe themselves to be a woman, or whether they have had bottom surgery? Does whether a blow job from a person with a male body is a homosexual act or not depend on their state of mind, yours, both, or neither?otolith said:
Does whether a blow job from a person with a male body is a homosexual act or not depend on their state of mind, yours, both, or neither?
It's a pertinent question. All things being equal (ie. no facial hair etc), then if a guy were blindfolded and given a BJ, then it's literally just a BJ. It's neither homosexual nor heterosexual until the gender (or sex) of the giver is identified.I guess you could call it Shroedinger's Blow Job.
j_4m said:
You're right, and it wasn't a perfect example, but the general societal perception is that women wear makeup and men do not. Makeup is a pure socialisation thing precisely because men can and do use it, pregnancy not so much, and whilst men can be the primary care givers to children it hasn't been until fairly recent history that it was practical for them to do so. To me those three things are examples of socialisation, biology, and a bit of both.
Certainly I remember when growing up in the 80's when the Eurhythmics came along there was a playground discussion about the gender of Annie Lennox (who you may recall had a very androgynous look), and one friend saying "Well of course she's a woman! She's got make up on!" and me replying "Guys can wear make up too you know!"Ok, as it turns out, she was a woman. But the point still stands. Especially given that my friends freaked the s
t out when Culture Club came along.
Rivenink said:
Would you consider a male having sexual relations with a trans-woman a homosexual act?
That's a very grey area, which can be discussed over several paragraphs (I can't be bothered). but the long and short of it, TO ME, yes.
But as I said it's a grey area and not really comparable.
otolith said:
^^ “knowingly”
OK, that would be rape, then.Clockwork Cupcake said:
xjay1337 said:
But your example is a load of crap, frankly. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Well, if two school kids are comparing pack lunches, and ask each other what fruit they have, and one has an apple and the other has an orange, it is ok to compare apples to oranges there. Ok, forget the example then. Just consider the statement "it is the underlying reasons for the preference that are germane, not the preference itself"
As I said, it's like
"Does this dress make my bum look big?
"No, it's your fat arse that makes your bum look big"
You're fixating on the dress, not the underlying reason.
(And please don't make some diversionary remark about dresses being trans and arses being gay. You know right well that wasn't my intent)
Clockwork Cupcake said:
otolith said:
Does whether a blow job from a person with a male body is a homosexual act or not depend on their state of mind, yours, both, or neither?
It's a pertinent question. All things being equal (ie. no facial hair etc), then if a guy were blindfolded and given a BJ, then it's literally just a BJ. It's neither homosexual nor heterosexual until the gender (or sex) of the giver is identified.I guess you could call it Shroedinger's Blow Job.
xjay1337 said:
However engaging in a relationship with something is not an "act of god", but a "free-will choice".
Ergo I can categorically state that I would never engage in an act with either a trans-woman or a male.
I think attraction is out of my control as well. One can't choose who they are attracted to. Ergo I can categorically state that I would never engage in an act with either a trans-woman or a male.
Stephen Fry writes about this - he says he is 90% gay and then - “I am pretty damned gay, but every now and again on my path through life I have met a woman in the ten per cent bracket”
xjay1337 said:
Rivenink said:
Would you consider a male having sexual relations with a trans-woman a homosexual act?
That's a very grey area, which can be discussed over several paragraphs (I can't be bothered). but the long and short of it, TO ME, yes.
But as I said it's a grey area and not really comparable.
If I'm following right; you think trans-women are male, which is why a male having sexual relations with a trans-woman is a homosexual act.
What would change your mind about whether a trans-woman is female or male?
Halb said:
j_4m said:
The idea of putting my penis in a fleshlight creeps me out, looks too much like some kind of Chinese finger trap.
I sometimes find myself browsing them on amazon...you can buy some very interesting things on amazon..When a woman buys a vibrator, it's seen as a bit of fun. Nowt wrong there. BUT when a man orders a 230v f
kMaster Pro 5000 blowup latex doll with 6 speed pulsating vagina, elasticised anus with non-drip semen collection tray, he's a pervert!Clockwork Cupcake said:
George Smiley said:
I have the concept of never having a sex with a man in my head, that does not make me homophobic.
Correct! Have a biscuit. What would be homophobic would be if your reasons were homophobic. If they aren't, then you aren't homophobic. Congratulations!
My god you are one messed up individual.
amusingduck said:
Halb said:
j_4m said:
The idea of putting my penis in a fleshlight creeps me out, looks too much like some kind of Chinese finger trap.
I sometimes find myself browsing them on amazon...you can buy some very interesting things on amazon..When a woman buys a vibrator, it's seen as a bit of fun. Nowt wrong there. BUT when a man orders a 230v f
kMaster Pro 5000 blowup latex doll with 6 speed pulsating vagina, elasticised anus with non-drip semen collection tray, he's a pervert!George Smiley said:
So someone is homophobic if they don't want sex with someone of the same sex?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just dense? That's exactly the opposite of what I said. George Smiley said:
My god you are one messed up individual.
Pot calling the kettle black there, mate. Edit: For the avoidance of all doubt, when I said "Correct" I was agreeing with your statement that It does not make you homophobic. Since I have stated this many times already, it should have been fairly clear that I was merely reiterating something I had already stated many times over.
If I misread your statement, and made it look like I had made a screaming U-turn rather than a mere ambiguity, then I sincerely apologise. Not that you deserve one.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 21st February 17:11
amusingduck said:
Difficult to justify as a man though. There's definitely double standards at play.
When a woman buys a vibrator, it's seen as a bit of fun. Nowt wrong there. BUT when a man orders a 230v fkMaster Pro 5000 blowup latex doll with 6 speed pulsating vagina, elasticised anus with non-drip semen collection tray, he's a pervert!
Especially when he writes "Natalie Portman" on it with a sharpie. Total double standard!When a woman buys a vibrator, it's seen as a bit of fun. Nowt wrong there. BUT when a man orders a 230v f
kMaster Pro 5000 blowup latex doll with 6 speed pulsating vagina, elasticised anus with non-drip semen collection tray, he's a pervert!Halb said:
It took a long time for vibrators to be as accepted as they are, they weren't once, they were hidden away, Pricks the male ego. THere are now adverts on telly for love eggs and things . I'd also think the male ego is at work with the fleshlight stuff too, 'what, you can't get a real woman', etc.
Men wking is just a bit gross and sad, women masturbating is an erotic and sensual act of self discovery, etc... etc...I'm sure that's the whole male gaze thing at work there. I think we could all stand to treat autoerotica as just one of those things that people do, neither to be shamed or romanticised.
Edited by j_4m on Thursday 21st February 16:01
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