The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

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Discussion

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Fortunately, I am not blinkered by the trough that you are snuffling from.

If you expect that there will be a fail-safe backup to intermittent renewables that renewables inc will not be paying for, then La-La land welcomes you!

And it won't be fossil-fueled backup - that's on the naughty step.

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Ali G said:
Fortunately, I am not blinkered by the trough that you are snuffling from.
For the last time before reporting you - back the fk up on any accusations, or prove it.
Your statements are unfounded, incorrect and malicious.
Have a go - yes please!

LongQ

13,864 posts

232 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Your car has an engine of 200hp ?

Do you drive around using 200hp all the time ?
Are you admitting to posting on PH and NOT driving your cars around using full power all of the time?

wink



turbobloke

103,742 posts

259 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Your car has an engine of 200hp ?

Do you drive around using 200hp all the time ?
Presumably you have a personal interest as you're subsidising his fuel bill?

wink

LongQ

13,864 posts

232 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Your car has an engine of 200hp ?

Do you drive around using 200hp all the time ?
A more serious response ....

Actually mine has 250bhp (allegedly).

But it's very old and so it's worth maybe £1k on a good day. Probably costs about half of that per annum on average in repairs and the same again on servicing, more or less. Plus, of course, fossil fuel costs.

In that context I suppose it's a bit like a coal fired power station other than the exhaust output still qualifying for use in London.

The amount of power available is, at least for the UK, absurd and unusable 99% of the time. But then I can switch it to non-sport mode and match it more closely to the prevailing traffic jams with lower output.

An equivalent market placing today would probably have 350 to 400bhp.

Ludicrous. So why do manufacturers keep making them and why do people keep buying them?

Why is Tesla so fixated about performance over distance?

Potentially, despite not being a really simple car in historic reference terms, I can at least still obtain parts for it and find people to fix it. Major Electronic components cost hundreds not thousands. The cost of ownership, despite its age, will be far less than any of the newer vehicles that are more or less equivalent and which are also likely to be unfixable at almost any price when they start to fail.

So my "coal fired" transport may well last 20 years or more. A modern "renewable" vehicle is probably far from renewable and may last 10 years before it becomes uneconomic. It's a design life thing. Traditional FF and Nuclear - 40 to 60 years if allowed to operate.

Wind? 25 to 30 perhaps then replace everything? Oh well, maybe everything will indeed be so cheap by then that replacement becomes feasible without killing the economy.

Solar? Much like wind only cheaper and, to some extent, a little more predictable.

The investment waste in modern personal transport is enormous. At some point that will change, probably because of a more pressing need to find ways of paying for energy and a less pressing need to travel so much. Pushing wind and solar generation almost certainly moves people in that direction.

IMO.

And of course I am relying on humanity globally to accept and embrace the need to unify everything and do as it is told by its politicians and planners, most of whom seem to be promoting only one solution whilst paying lip service to "choice" and "balanced solutions" and "competitive tendering".

7795

1,070 posts

180 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Late to this thread but had a very interesting chat with a friend who is in the "Home energy monitor" game...

He is insistent that the only reason the gov is pushing all to have it installed is so they can monitor all the power you use and it is irrelevant where it comes from you pay from whatever you use even if you generate it yourself (wind/solar etc...).

In the same way, he thinks that once we all have electric cars we will pay per mile to compensate for the tax loss on petrol/diesel.

Wayoftheflower

1,324 posts

234 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Ali G said:
Are you referring to Musk's big battery?

Let us know if you consider this to be in any way a 'solution'.
Big battery is working well supporting unreliable coal actually.

Link

There are now calls for current fossil fuel powered stations to be held to the same level of reliability standards as renewables.laugh

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Wayoftheflower said:
Big battery is working well supporting unreliable coal actually.

Link

There are now calls for current fossil fuel powered stations to be held to the same level of reliability standards as renewables.laugh
Somewhere through the looking glass - there may be a white rabbit.

Were you looking to provide a convincing basis for discussion?

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Ali G said:
Wayoftheflower said:
Big battery is working well supporting unreliable coal actually.

Link

There are now calls for current fossil fuel powered stations to be held to the same level of reliability standards as renewables.laugh
Somewhere through the looking glass - there may be a white rabbit.

Were you looking to provide a convincing basis for discussion?
I didn't think that was desired in this thread? Thought it was all just personal attacks and reposting the same things over and over again?

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Intermittent, Unreliable and non-dispachable - 1, 2 and 3

Repeat.

turbobloke

103,742 posts

259 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
rscott said:
Ali G said:
Wayoftheflower said:
Big battery is working well supporting unreliable coal actually.

Link

There are now calls for current fossil fuel powered stations to be held to the same level of reliability standards as renewables.laugh
Somewhere through the looking glass - there may be a white rabbit.

Were you looking to provide a convincing basis for discussion?
I didn't think that was desired in this thread? Thought it was all just personal attacks and reposting the same things over and over again?
No it's the thread where unreliables fans ignore the implications of EROEI with storage again and again then over and over again.

What might that lead to?

As before, accurate descriptions aren't personal attacks, for tips on personal stuff like that you need to see Paddy's back catalogue.

Then there are 'not happening no more' subsidies wobble

Duh.

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
What are the EROI numbers associated with the next phase of Offshore Wind - 15MW turbines in 2.4GW sites?

All I can see on the internet is old data, out-dated data.

Equivalent to Offshore Wind generating at a LCOE of £127 MWh

What are the numbers associated with the technologies of a LCOE of £57 MWh ?

(all you bang on about is EROI - so you should have all this to hand)
Intermittency sorted yet Paddy?

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
That's a NO then.

Intermittency has yet to be sorted by renewables inc - NHS may be a tad annoyed.

Jinx

11,345 posts

259 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
You would need to be building lots of power stations just to build a wind farm – and clearly we are not.
[cough] China is building lots of power stations - some of which will be used to provide the parts for wind farms. [/cough]

Gary C

12,315 posts

178 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Paddy, genuine question. What's the cheapest currently operating wind farm in £/MW and what's the cost of the next one due on the bars ?

MYOB

4,767 posts

137 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Gary C said:
Paddy, genuine question. What's the cheapest currently operating wind farm in £/MW and what's the cost of the next one due on the bars ?
How would we know? Isn't this information commercially sensitive?

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
There's quite a lot of info on-line for Rampion - which is a rather an impressive construction.


http://www.power-technology.com/projects/rampion-o...

Gary C

12,315 posts

178 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Ali G said:
There's quite a lot of info on-line for Rampion - which is a rather an impressive construction.


http://www.power-technology.com/projects/rampion-o...
Interesting numbers.

400mw for 2bn against Hinckley C of 3260mw for 20bn, suprisingly close just on nameplate capacity (ie 8 times the nameplate for 10 times the cost) but when you consider yearly output will be ~40% against Hinckleys ~80% you get about 16 times the output for 10 times the cost, and that the farm has an expected lifespan of 25 years whereas Hinckley C is 60 years.

Of course, we don't know the final cost of Hinckley yet (but I know a man who has a good idea)

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Indeed - factor in Carillion for Rampion too (not sure about Hinckley) and matters may become interesting although hopefully that stage has been completed

Not much mention of how much intermittency is to be expected, although expect around 30-40% of plated capacity average output making a headline 140MW a little less shiny.

turbobloke

103,742 posts

259 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
quotequote all
Gary C said:
Ali G said:
There's quite a lot of info on-line for Rampion - which is a rather an impressive construction.


http://www.power-technology.com/projects/rampion-o...
Interesting numbers.

400mw for 2bn against Hinckley C of 3260mw for 20bn, suprisingly close just on nameplate capacity (ie 8 times the nameplate for 10 times the cost) but when you consider yearly output will be ~40% against Hinckleys ~80% you get about 16 times the output for 10 times the cost, and that the farm has an expected lifespan of 25 years whereas Hinckley C is 60 years.
Compare and contrast with >£50bn 'invested' in 'clean' energy (UK) 2010 - 2015 inclusive.