The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs 
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Lot of talk about fracking and the effects on water supplies. No one seems to mention how much all this fracking infrastructure is going to cost or more importantly how they intend to install the equipment and infrastructure. The US has considerably more empty, almost worthless land.
Can't see folk been too impressed when they want to run 20miles of flowline through quite heavily built up areas.
Or if they intend to process it and then supply to the existing grid? Processing plants and flare booms popping up in built up areas is going to be a major point of contention.
Can't see folk been too impressed when they want to run 20miles of flowline through quite heavily built up areas.
Or if they intend to process it and then supply to the existing grid? Processing plants and flare booms popping up in built up areas is going to be a major point of contention.
dickymint said:
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
I do not consider that your emotive comment on renewables is not worthy of a response.
Nickgnome said:
dickymint said:
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Info on New Research said:
New research from National Energy Action (NEA) has found the UK has the sixth-worst long-term rate of excess winter mortality out of 30 European countries.
Carried out in partnership with climate think tank E3G, the research also discovered when taking into account cold weather beyond just the winter months, the UK ranks second-worst out of 30 European countries.
There has been an average of 32,000 excess winter deaths in the UK every year over the last five years, the research revealed.
Around 9,700 of these deaths are due to a cold home.
Carried out in partnership with climate think tank E3G, the research also discovered when taking into account cold weather beyond just the winter months, the UK ranks second-worst out of 30 European countries.
There has been an average of 32,000 excess winter deaths in the UK every year over the last five years, the research revealed.
Around 9,700 of these deaths are due to a cold home.
2017 Official Review said:
Consumers are paying too much for their energy because of “excessive” green taxes added to bills, a damning Government-commissioned report has found.
A series of “spectacularly bad” decisions by ministers have “unnecessarily burdened” households and businesses with higher green energy subsidies than necessary, according to Prof ?Dieter Helm, of Oxford University.
The cost of renewable energy – as well as gas, coal and oil – has fallen but the benefits have not been passed on because ministers locked the taxpayer into long-term contracts that overestimated those costs, Prof Helm found.
Green taxes will cost the average household almost £150 from next year, according to energy firms.
Nothing to see here? Spectacularly bad decisions, almost 10,000 deaths, consumers paying over the odds in their / our energy bills due to gov't contracts paying excessive and locked-in sums to renewables co's over many years? I disagree. Here's an example of the aforementioned bad decisions.A series of “spectacularly bad” decisions by ministers have “unnecessarily burdened” households and businesses with higher green energy subsidies than necessary, according to Prof ?Dieter Helm, of Oxford University.
The cost of renewable energy – as well as gas, coal and oil – has fallen but the benefits have not been passed on because ministers locked the taxpayer into long-term contracts that overestimated those costs, Prof Helm found.
Green taxes will cost the average household almost £150 from next year, according to energy firms.
Commentary on NAO analysis of renewables policy impact said:
It estimated that the Hornsea One project would require a total of £4.2 billion in subsidies, an average of about £280 million per year.
Consumers will be on the hook to pay subsidies to make up the difference between the market price of power - currently about £35 per megawatt-hour - and a guaranteed price, of £140/MWh.
These will be funded by households and businesses through green levies on their energy bills.
The market price of power has fallen significantly since the NAO made its estimates, suggesting the true cost may be even higher.
Currently = at the time of contract award presumably.Consumers will be on the hook to pay subsidies to make up the difference between the market price of power - currently about £35 per megawatt-hour - and a guaranteed price, of £140/MWh.
These will be funded by households and businesses through green levies on their energy bills.
The market price of power has fallen significantly since the NAO made its estimates, suggesting the true cost may be even higher.
"Spectacularly bad decisions" don't end there, unfortunately.
turbobloke said:
Consumers will be on the hook to pay subsidies to make up the difference between the market price of power - currently about £35 per megawatt-hour - and a guaranteed price, of £140/MWh.
These will be funded by households and businesses through green levies on their energy bills.
The market price of power has fallen significantly since the NAO made its estimates, suggesting the true cost may be even higher.
But then again, the cost might be even less. If you can find me baseload power at 35 quid a mw I'd buy about 4 years worth, its costing £60-65 to burn gas. These will be funded by households and businesses through green levies on their energy bills.
The market price of power has fallen significantly since the NAO made its estimates, suggesting the true cost may be even higher.
But then again, because all you read is out of date reports without much, if any, knowledge of the uk power market, so such nuances would be lost on you.
As would the nuance that the reason renewable prices have fallen is because of government support in the inital years. That allowed economies of scale and research into turbine tech. New onshore wind is competitive without any support, but the uk has halted that and now wants offshore wind which is rapidly falling in price.
Can you tell me what percentage of uk generation has a cfd at £140? I'd wager its insignificantly small.
Nickgnome said:
dickymint said:
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
I do not consider that your emotive comment on renewables is not worthy of a response.
dickymint said:
Nickgnome said:
dickymint said:
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
I do not consider that your emotive comment on renewables is not worthy of a response.
Nickgnome said:
dickymint said:
Nickgnome said:
dickymint said:
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
I do not consider that your emotive comment on renewables is not worthy of a response.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
All we can reasonably say is that there is around 30,000 excess winter deaths, and that amount has been falling generally over time.
There certainly isn't a correlation with the inflation adjusted price of domestic energy which actually had a price drop around the time of the last significant reversal of the trend in a reduction in the excess deaths in the mid 1990's.
All the claimed numbers of deaths due to fuel poverty are statistical estimates in studies commissioned by groups that campaign on these issues.
However one of the notable things is that as a European comparison domestic energy in the UK is cheap.
Excess winter mortality is mainly to do with the general social settlement with the elderly and our building stock.
It has very little to do with where we source our electricity from as most domestic heating in the UK is supplied by gas and the impact of subsidies on an elderly person's budget/life is less than a whole load of factors like, benefits, social care and general inflation.
turbobloke said:
Rain stops play today, fracking tomrorrow. Good news.
Have you stopped replying to me now? 
Recently I was at a National Grid seminar on what changes are happening in the network.
There wasnt much talk about re-introducing coal.
Edited by Condi on Tuesday 16th October 15:01
Condi said:
turbobloke said:
Rain stops play today, fracking tomrorrow. Good news.
Have you stopped replying to me now? Recently I was at a National Grid seminar on what changes are happening in the network.
There wasnt much talk about re-introducing coal.
Edited by Condi on Tuesday 16th October 15:01
PRTVR said:
You misunderstood, the reason to keep coal if for energy security, with fracking we will have it with gas, no need for coal.
But we've had offshore gas for years. And we're still finding more, there is plenty of untapped potential off the Western Isles. 1 onshore test well attempting to see if onshore fracking is viable is negligible.
Condi said:
turbobloke said:
Rain stops play today, fracking tomrorrow. Good news.
Have you stopped replying to me now? Recently I was at a National Grid seminar on what changes are happening in the network.
There wasnt much talk about re-introducing coal.
Edited by Condi on Tuesday 16th October 15:01
turbobloke said:
Nickgnome said:
dickymint said:
GroundEffect said:
dickymint said:
Fracking has been been given the go ahead in Lancs
https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Why is that a good thing?https://news.sky.com/story/fracking-can-go-ahead-i...
Info on New Research said:
New research from National Energy Action (NEA) has found the UK has the sixth-worst long-term rate of excess winter mortality out of 30 European countries.
Carried out in partnership with climate think tank E3G, the research also discovered when taking into account cold weather beyond just the winter months, the UK ranks second-worst out of 30 European countries.
There has been an average of 32,000 excess winter deaths in the UK every year over the last five years, the research revealed.
Around 9,700 of these deaths are due to a cold home.
Carried out in partnership with climate think tank E3G, the research also discovered when taking into account cold weather beyond just the winter months, the UK ranks second-worst out of 30 European countries.
There has been an average of 32,000 excess winter deaths in the UK every year over the last five years, the research revealed.
Around 9,700 of these deaths are due to a cold home.
2017 Official Review said:
Consumers are paying too much for their energy because of “excessive” green taxes added to bills, a damning Government-commissioned report has found.
A series of “spectacularly bad” decisions by ministers have “unnecessarily burdened” households and businesses with higher green energy subsidies than necessary, according to Prof ?Dieter Helm, of Oxford University.
The cost of renewable energy – as well as gas, coal and oil – has fallen but the benefits have not been passed on because ministers locked the taxpayer into long-term contracts that overestimated those costs, Prof Helm found.
Green taxes will cost the average household almost £150 from next year, according to energy firms.
Nothing to see here? Spectacularly bad decisions, almost 10,000 deaths, consumers paying over the odds in their / our energy bills due to gov't contracts paying excessive and locked-in sums to renewables co's over many years? I disagree. Here's an example of the aforementioned bad decisions.A series of “spectacularly bad” decisions by ministers have “unnecessarily burdened” households and businesses with higher green energy subsidies than necessary, according to Prof ?Dieter Helm, of Oxford University.
The cost of renewable energy – as well as gas, coal and oil – has fallen but the benefits have not been passed on because ministers locked the taxpayer into long-term contracts that overestimated those costs, Prof Helm found.
Green taxes will cost the average household almost £150 from next year, according to energy firms.
Commentary on NAO analysis of renewables policy impact said:
It estimated that the Hornsea One project would require a total of £4.2 billion in subsidies, an average of about £280 million per year.
Consumers will be on the hook to pay subsidies to make up the difference between the market price of power - currently about £35 per megawatt-hour - and a guaranteed price, of £140/MWh.
These will be funded by households and businesses through green levies on their energy bills.
The market price of power has fallen significantly since the NAO made its estimates, suggesting the true cost may be even higher.
Currently = at the time of contract award presumably.Consumers will be on the hook to pay subsidies to make up the difference between the market price of power - currently about £35 per megawatt-hour - and a guaranteed price, of £140/MWh.
These will be funded by households and businesses through green levies on their energy bills.
The market price of power has fallen significantly since the NAO made its estimates, suggesting the true cost may be even higher.
"Spectacularly bad decisions" don't end there, unfortunately.
I guess one population of dead people suits the goals of the bigger picture (ref green blob) but the other do not.... hmmmmm
Davidonly said:
Very strange how there seems to be zero concern ( BBC?)about these deaths (are they actual deaths)? I ask due to the hysteria about 40,000 'premature' deaths (perhaps by as little few hours or so) used to further demonise ICE vehicles.
I guess one population of dead people suits the goals of the bigger picture (ref green blob) but the other do not.... hmmmmm
It doesn't take "green blob" to place much greater emphasis on different causes of death. I guess one population of dead people suits the goals of the bigger picture (ref green blob) but the other do not.... hmmmmm
Terrorism, murder and nuclear power all receive considerably more attention than the negligible numbers that they kill would suggest where as diabetes is rarely covered.
I suggest you bring it up with BBC More or Less, they did an episode on the deaths due to bad air. It is notable that they explained that those figures were an estimated of reduction in healthy years of life rather than actual deaths.
The "deaths due to fuel poverty" will be pretty similar, depending on how good the research is it will range from lies, misquoting of statistics and confusing healthy years reductions with given number of deaths.
Condi said:
V8 Fettler said:
At the seminar, was there any discussion re: gas shortage in March 2018? If so, what steps are being taken to prevent a recurrence?
No. It was about the power system.
Ok, this annoyed me - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45873785 - the article (not sure if it has been edited) does, correctly, state that Scottish Power retail customers will indeed still be getting mixed energy (especially on the non-windy days, presumably) but the company are basically spinning it as look at us, we're all greeny, windy blah blah blah as though they are going to be supplying 100% wind power to retail customers when in reality there will still be plenty of days when they'll be supplying either fossil energy or, particularly given the energy mix in Scotland, buying nuclear power from EDF.
The big thing I don't get is this though - Scottish Power own a decent number of Hydro stations (pretty much all inherited from the SSEB), plus the pumped storage station at Cruachan - why have they shifted this stuff on to Drax? Surely reliable renewable energy, particularly one of the few bits of grid attached storage, would be an asset to the company, especially one that's decided to play the green card?
The big thing I don't get is this though - Scottish Power own a decent number of Hydro stations (pretty much all inherited from the SSEB), plus the pumped storage station at Cruachan - why have they shifted this stuff on to Drax? Surely reliable renewable energy, particularly one of the few bits of grid attached storage, would be an asset to the company, especially one that's decided to play the green card?
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