The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

[PRTVR]

rscott said:

Think we all agree gas is a better option than coal though? Surely we should be focusing on replacing the gas storage system which closed down last year, cutting our possible reserves to less than a third of what it was previously. If it were still there, then would we even be talking about possible shortages?

The problem still remains of being locked into a mainly single energy source for electricity production, what if Russia cuts the supply to Europe ? Remember Putin is displaying all his new weapons, and sounding very hawkish, the price of gas goes through the roof and we have no option but to pay it, I was chatting to an engineer who was working on building a gas storage plant, the costs involved were very high and the time scale is quite large, these things cannot be built overnight, in the short term coal will mitigate the above problem's till an acceptable alternative can be found.
Green Germany thinks coal is the future, why not us ?

[Evanivitch]

PRTVR said:

The problem still remains of being locked into a mainly single energy source for electricity production, what if Russia cuts the supply to Europe ? Remember Putin is displaying all his new weapons, and sounding very hawkish, the price of gas goes through the roof and we have no option but to pay it, I was chatting to an engineer who was working on building a gas storage plant, the costs involved were very high and the time scale is quite large, these things cannot be built overnight, in the short term coal will mitigate the above problem's till an acceptable alternative can be found.
Green Germany thinks coal is the future, why not us ?

Because Germany has a substantial coal mining industry. Ours has been driven down substantially and now is no longer sufficient to support UK power.

Alternatively if we fracked we might be able to be self sufficient in gas.

[PRTVR]

Evanivitch said:

PRTVR said:

The problem still remains of being locked into a mainly single energy source for electricity production, what if Russia cuts the supply to Europe ? Remember Putin is displaying all his new weapons, and sounding very hawkish, the price of gas goes through the roof and we have no option but to pay it, I was chatting to an engineer who was working on building a gas storage plant, the costs involved were very high and the time scale is quite large, these things cannot be built overnight, in the short term coal will mitigate the above problem's till an acceptable alternative can be found.
Green Germany thinks coal is the future, why not us ?

Because Germany has a substantial coal mining industry. Ours has been driven down substantially and now is no longer sufficient to support UK power.

Alternatively if we fracked we might be able to be self sufficient in gas.

But nobody wants fracking near them, nobody want coal power stations, some don't even want nuclear, but everybody wants to switch a switch and have light, it's the mad old world we live in.

[Evanivitch]

On an entirely different point, I was listening to an article on energy the other day and I learned something new about Heat Pumps, namely the water sourced type.

Apparently these are increasingly common in Norway where Electricity and flowing water is somewhat plentiful. The system pumps water from the water flow, extracts the heat, then returns it about 4C cooler. Same can be done in coastal regions.

As always, these things are dependent on large industrial installations that share energy with local communities.

I wonder if somewhere like Swansea could combine the potential of a tidal lagoon with a WSHP to provide heat and Electricity to the surrounding areas. Or maybe just the new uni campus!

PRTVR said:

But nobody wants fracking near them, nobody want coal power stations, some don't even want nuclear, but everybody wants to switch a switch and have light, it's the mad old world we live in.

Completely agree.

[Toltec]

PRTVR said:

But nobody wants fracking near them, nobody want coal power stations, some don't even want nuclear, but everybody wants to switch a switch and have light, it's the mad old world we live in.

Which is why we need a smart meter system for these people, if it is sunny or windy enough they get power, if not and they don't have a battery backup or it is depleted their lights will not come on.

[Byker28i]

Evanivitch said:

On an entirely different point, I was listening to an article on energy the other day and I learned something new about Heat Pumps, namely the water sourced type.

Apparently these are increasingly common in Norway where Electricity and flowing water is somewhat plentiful. The system pumps water from the water flow, extracts the heat, then returns it about 4C cooler. Same can be done in coastal regions.

As always, these things are dependent on large industrial installations that share energy with local communities.

I wonder if somewhere like Swansea could combine the potential of a tidal lagoon with a WSHP to provide heat and Electricity to the surrounding areas. Or maybe just the new uni campus!

Why not just capture the heat generated by the Port Talbot works next door?

[tomw2000]

Evanivitch said:

What's your point? We could say the same of gas.

We supposedly had less than 500,000 tons in 2016 stockpiled, so where will the rest of the 59.5m tons be kept?

And what about the effect on communities and health?
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2017/07/...

I bet there's plenty of suitable storage space in the UK for us to stock pile coal.

Our disused coal mines for example....

[Evanivitch]

Byker28i said:

Why not just capture the heat generated by the Port Talbot works next door?

Because they're idiots.

It's only recently they've started burning the waste gasses in a turbine because the capital return came down to 2 years. Asking them to invest in something that might benefit the local community is somewhat beyond their scope of simply providing employment to a town that is entirely dependent on it.

[Evanivitch]

tomw2000 said:

I bet there's plenty of suitable storage space in the UK for us to stock pile coal.

Our disused coal mines for example....

You mean the ones that have been closed and re-purposed into nature reserves and housing?

[tomw2000]

Evanivitch said:

You mean the ones that have been closed and re-purposed into nature reserves and housing?

Well, I was referring to disused coal mine shafts and tunnels - but fair play if these are now all full of houses and nature reserves.

[PRTVR]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

PRTVR said:

What about Australia ? Coal is available from a lot of different countries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_...

To be 'dependent' on a source the other side of the work that needs mining, and freighting to the UK to burn is not common sense.

We are dependent on oil from the middle East, what is the difference , apart from Australia is more stable ? We bring in renewables from the USA, is it just a question of distance that is your concern ? What is an acceptable distance?

[Evanivitch]

tomw2000 said:

Well, I was referring to disused coal mine shafts and tunnels - but fair play if these are now all full of houses and nature reserves.

No, they're now full of water. And have towns around them.

[Cold]

I drove past one of the local solar farms today. Seems to be going well.

[Ali G]

There's a little more on the current weather system and looming concerns for power generation here:

http://euanmearns.com/the-beast-from-the-east-and-...

Onshore fracking is facing serious opposition if this is anything to go by

http://frack-off.org.uk/locations/

Looks like offshore fracking may be the only option - at a price.

http://www.shalegasfracking.co.uk/shale-gas-reserv...

Edited to fix link

Edited by Ali G on Friday 2nd March 18:35

[PRTVR]

The present problem with gas may have been man made,
Centrica shut down large gas storage facility.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-...

[rscott]

PRTVR said:

The present problem with gas may have been man made,
Centrica shut down large gas storage facility.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-...

That'd be like the link I posted this morning?

rscott said:

Isn't the issue that we don't have the same gas storage facilities that we used to, so can't hold enough in reserve.

According to https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/01/u... , we've got less than a third of the storage capacity we had a few years ago.

[Ali G]

For those who may wish to make use of coal reserves but not wish to mine it.

Underground Coal Gasification

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/UCG.html

[Evanivitch]

Ali G said:

For those who may wish to make use of coal reserves but not wish to mine it.

Underground Coal Gasification

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/UCG.html

Been proposed under Swansea Bay and Margam for probably 5 years, bit the terms 'controlled combustion' and under people's homes doesn't generally sell well...

[Ali G]

Quite - offshore it.

[PRTVR]

rscott said:

PRTVR said:

The present problem with gas may have been man made,
Centrica shut down large gas storage facility.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-...

That'd be like the link I posted this morning?

rscott said:

Isn't the issue that we don't have the same gas storage facilities that we used to, so can't hold enough in reserve.

According to https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/01/u... , we've got less than a third of the storage capacity we had a few years ago.

Apologies, went out and when I came back in read the open tab and posted, should have thought about why I would have a Guardian tab open.