The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
I'm pretty sure all the material I've read regarding Black Start in the UK has the majority back on within a week.
Quite disruptive but certainly not 2 years.
Show my arse in Wigan Pier if the whole network goes down 'because renewables' though. I think some people underestimate just how many very smart people work in the UKs Electricity generation and Distribution industry.
Quite disruptive but certainly not 2 years.
Show my arse in Wigan Pier if the whole network goes down 'because renewables' though. I think some people underestimate just how many very smart people work in the UKs Electricity generation and Distribution industry.
Merry said:
I'm pretty sure all the material I've read regarding Black Start in the UK has the majority back on within a week.
Optimism! Is that with external power i.e. external to the UK?You might be interested in this.
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/balancing-services...
"Black Start Competitive Procurement Event"
"We are now inviting Expressions of Interest".
"The deadline for submission of your EOI is 29 March 2019."
There's still time.
Merry said:
I think some people underestimate just how many very smart people work in the UKs Electricity generation and Distribution industry.
Not likely, we've read posts from some in this thread. The chance of underestimating the challenge of a black start is higher.
gadgetmac said:
Fake experts? Conspiracy theories? Unqualified opinions? :
Nothing on-topic, name calling, drivel, sadly there's no doubt who's on the thread now.You'd have been (not you'd of been as per one of your recent stellar efforts) in trouble over the posting rule banning amateur sleuthing, but as you're now on the thread your 'unqualified' comment has turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Condi said:
So who's comment was it? And what are his credentials about power networks, and what paper has he published?
Somebody who left a comment on a blog, their identity is irrelevant as it's the content of the comment that matters. It was posted here without remarks from others at the secondary source on its nature in order to give it a level playing field.
Merry managed an on-topic reply so it remains possible
turbobloke said:
Not likely, we've read posts from some in this thread.
The chance of underestimating the challenge of a black start is higher.
I'll give your link a read, but that figure was from our internal guidance. I work for one of the DNOs. The chance of underestimating the challenge of a black start is higher.
I'm sorry but with regards your 2nd point, you're wrong. In fact it's a bit of an unnecessary cheap shot at some of the contributors to this thread. There's already been sufficient thought gone into it that guidance and requirements have gone out to distributors and projects to meet this have already started. You've not uncovered some sort of massive oversight here.
Condi said:
EDIT - Of interest we've had 10GW of baseload wind power this week. Funky. 
Been marveling at the same on the gridwatch site, while I'm aware of all the drawbacks of renewables it's hard to say this isn't progress.However according to Wikipedia 10 GW is only half the installed capacity. It's been bloody windy here at least, so:
- Is installed capacity greatly overstated? i.e. does a 2 MW turbine only produce that in a force 12 hurricane? I'm aware output power is proportional to cube of wind speed so this is quite a likely explanation.
- Has it been not very windy at all in many of the turbine sites?
- Are the infrastructure limitations which I keep seeing mentioned what has limited it at 10 GW this week? If we could sort that out would 20 GW of wind power be feasible?
- Something else?
Would love to know the full story about the spinning reserve which has to be there as well, has a commensurate amount of gas actually not been burned this week? As far as I am aware figures to answer that are not generally available.
Jambo85 said:
Condi said:
EDIT - Of interest we've had 10GW of baseload wind power this week. Funky.
Been marveling at the same on the gridwatch site, while I'm aware of all the drawbacks of renewables it's hard to say this isn't progress.However according to Wikipedia 10 GW is only half the installed capacity. It's been bloody windy here at least, so:
- Is installed capacity greatly overstated? i.e. does a 2 MW turbine only produce that in a force 12 hurricane? I'm aware output power is proportional to cube of wind speed so this is quite a likely explanation.
- Has it been not very windy at all in many of the turbine sites?
- Are the infrastructure limitations which I keep seeing mentioned what has limited it at 10 GW this week? If we could sort that out would 20 GW of wind power be feasible?
- Something else?
Would love to know the full story about the spinning reserve which has to be there as well, has a commensurate amount of gas actually not been burned this week? As far as I am aware figures to answer that are not generally available.
Merry said:
I'm pretty sure all the material I've read regarding Black Start in the UK has the majority back on within a week.
Quite disruptive but certainly not 2 years.
Show my arse in Wigan Pier if the whole network goes down 'because renewables' though. I think some people underestimate just how many very smart people work in the UKs Electricity generation and Distribution industry.
i'm only quoting just in case Quite disruptive but certainly not 2 years.
Show my arse in Wigan Pier if the whole network goes down 'because renewables' though. I think some people underestimate just how many very smart people work in the UKs Electricity generation and Distribution industry.
turbobloke said:
gadgetmac said:
Fake experts? Conspiracy theories? Unqualified opinions? :
Nothing on-topic, name calling, drivel, sadly there's no doubt who's on the thread now.You'd have been (not you'd of been as per one of your recent stellar efforts) in trouble over the posting rule banning amateur sleuthing, but as you're now on the thread your 'unqualified' comment has turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It's wrong but then so are 90% of your ramblings on NP & E
It's just a shame you are allowed to spread your fake news across the internet. Hey ho, it's the age we live in now.
Jambo85 said:
However according to Wikipedia 10 GW is only half the installed capacity.
Important to note that this doesn't include the 1/3 of extra un-metered wind capacity connected to the distribution grid.So in reality we are more like 14 GW as per http://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?&_k=...
Jambo85 said:
- Is installed capacity greatly overstated? i.e. does a 2 MW turbine only produce that in a force 12 hurricane? I'm aware output power is proportional to cube of wind speed so this is quite a likely explanation.
Almost all wind turbines will reach 'rated capacity' at between 10-15 m/s - that is 22-35 MPH; so not a force 12 gale. The difference is largely due to how big the rotor is vs the size of generator. Note if it's only intermittent gusts then the output won't be fixed.Jambo85 said:
- Has it been not very windy at all in many of the turbine sites?
There will be some regional variation as weather systems move over the UK.Jambo85 said:
- Are the infrastructure limitations which I keep seeing mentioned what has limited it at 10 GW this week? If we could sort that out would 20 GW of wind power be feasible?
There are electrical constraints in certain areas although these are less pronounced during day time as demand is higher than overnight. Potentially but it's probably not worth it financially (law of diminishing returns) to fix many of the issues.Jambo85 said:
- Something else?
A small proportion of turbines will be unavailable for downtime. Although you can bet owners will be doing everything they can make sure they are available during weeks such as this as it can have a big revenue impact.gazapc said:
Jambo85 said:
However according to Wikipedia 10 GW is only half the installed capacity.
Important to note that this doesn't include the 1/3 of extra un-metered wind capacity connected to the distribution grid.So in reality we are more like 14 GW as per http://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?&_k=...
rscott said:
I believe part of the issue is currently in the distribution network - hence the number of new interconnects being built.
That's my understanding too, a lot of the areas that are good for windfarms are out in the wilds so not in places that had big grid connections previously. There was talk of a huge offshore array by Hinkley that could pick up the grid links being put in there, Atlantic array? I think it got put off as there were concerns about impact on the wildlife. Some of this talk of electric-only houses in future concerns me a fair bit, will be looking into a back boiler for my log burner and things like underfloor heating with various off-grid ways of heating it in my next house.
gazapc said:
I believe 20 GW capacity includes all turbines.
Indeed. The 10GW I quoted was only transmission connected generation, so there will be a whole host of smaller distribution sites which dont feature in a lot of data sets. From our point of view we see it as demand reduction, rather than a supply increase, if that makes sense. turbobloke said:
Condi said:
So who's comment was it? And what are his credentials about power networks, and what paper has he published?
Somebody who left a comment on a blog, their identity is irrelevant as it's the content of the comment that matters. Sorry, that doesnt make any sense to me, I like to have some trust in the source of my knowledge and simply repeating what is written on the internet is not a good way to learn anything. Anyone can comment, even a monkey on a typewriter will eventually produce works of Shakespeare.
I have read most of this thread - but there seems to be some very disjointed conversations.
It also seems odd to me that many are simply argumentative against what is being experienced and practiced in the real world as PH’er’s carry out their daily employment and by virtue knowing their subject matter.
Farsical claims of yesteryear combine with misinformation is constantly distracting from amnestying interesting thread that I’d want to contribute to, but doubtful such is the heresy of any new technology or innovation.
From what I can glean, it is down to a few posters in here that have driven off or had banned the only knowledgable posters.
Why is this even happening ?
Anyway, from way back in 1974 :
“"And what will they burn instead of coal?"
"Water," replied Harding.
"Water!" cried Pencroft, "water as fuel for steamers and engines! water to heat water!"
"Yes, but water decomposed into its primitive elements," replied Cyrus Harding, "and decomposed doubtless, by electricity, which will then have become a powerful and manageable force, for all great discoveries, by some inexplicable laws, appear to agree and become complete at the same time. Yes, my friends, I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable. Some day the coalrooms of steamers and the tenders of locomotives will, instead of coal, be stored with these two condensed gases, which will burn in the furnaces with enormous calorific power. There is, therefore, nothing to fear. As long as the earth is inhabited it will supply the wants of its inhabitants, and there will be no want of either light or heat as long as the productions of the vegetable, mineral or animal kingdoms do not fail us. I believe, then, that when the deposits of coal are exhausted we shall heat and warm ourselves with water. Water will be the coal of the future."
"I should like to see that," observed the sailor.
"You were born too soon, Pencroft," returned Neb, who only took part in the discussion by these words.”
Jules Verne, The Mysterious Island.
And now in 2019, it is all coming together, Ørsted the latest developer to submit a bid into the offshore wind tender for Hollandse Kust Zuid 3&4, having lined up financing for the project.
As part of its bid the company is also committed to establish green hydrogen projects that will take power generated from its Dutch offshore wind farms.
"We believe that our bid for Holland Coast South 3&4 offers significant benefits for the Dutch society in terms of clean and cost-competitive energy as well as industrial development," Henrik Poulsen, CEO and President of Orsted, said.
"We are ready to scale-up and bring down costs of green hydrogen like we have done with offshore wind," he said.
Orsted is currently building the nearby 752 MW Borssele 1&2 wind farm. Due for completion by Q1 2021, Borssele 1&2 will be Netherlands' largest offshore wind farm to date.
This year, Orsted will build an operations & maintenance (O&M) base for Borssele 1&2 in Vlissingen, Zeeland. The base will create 50-100 permanent and highly skilled jobs in Zeeland for the operational lifetime of the facility.
Orsted sees the U.S. offshore wind market as a key growth area and the company has recently strengthened its presence through a series of recent acquisitions and partnerships.
So Ørsted in to Hydrogen fuel ?
Whatever next?
Shell in to Electricity :
Shell aims to become world's largest electricity company
Oil and gas major Royal Dutch Shell will become the world's largest electricity company by the 2030s if it achieves its goals for cutting greenhouse emissions, Maarten Wetselaar, Shell’s director of gas and new energies, said at a conference in Houston.
As the world moves towards an electrification of energy supplies, Shell could expand its power business to the same size as its oil and gas operations, Wetselaar told the Financial Times.
This expansion would include power trading and the supply of power and equipment and would require returns on capital of 8 to 12% over the period, Wetselaar said.
Shell sees major opportunities in the decentralized power market, where it believes it has an advantage over established power utilities that own conventional coal and nuclear power plants. Shell believes it is well-placed to deploy advanced technologies and trading services in decentralized networks.
Shell recently entered the U.S. offshore wind market and is developing floating wind technologies. Other recent investments include the acquisition of German energy storage group Sonnen and UK power supplier First Utility.
By 2020, Shell plans to invest $1 to $2 billion a year in new energy technologies including electricity.
“We will do that for a number of years,” Wetselaar said.
“And then we will scale it up, because otherwise we will never get there,” he said
These are truly the futures of Power Generation.
It also seems odd to me that many are simply argumentative against what is being experienced and practiced in the real world as PH’er’s carry out their daily employment and by virtue knowing their subject matter.
Farsical claims of yesteryear combine with misinformation is constantly distracting from amnestying interesting thread that I’d want to contribute to, but doubtful such is the heresy of any new technology or innovation.
From what I can glean, it is down to a few posters in here that have driven off or had banned the only knowledgable posters.
Why is this even happening ?
Anyway, from way back in 1974 :
“"And what will they burn instead of coal?"
"Water," replied Harding.
"Water!" cried Pencroft, "water as fuel for steamers and engines! water to heat water!"
"Yes, but water decomposed into its primitive elements," replied Cyrus Harding, "and decomposed doubtless, by electricity, which will then have become a powerful and manageable force, for all great discoveries, by some inexplicable laws, appear to agree and become complete at the same time. Yes, my friends, I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable. Some day the coalrooms of steamers and the tenders of locomotives will, instead of coal, be stored with these two condensed gases, which will burn in the furnaces with enormous calorific power. There is, therefore, nothing to fear. As long as the earth is inhabited it will supply the wants of its inhabitants, and there will be no want of either light or heat as long as the productions of the vegetable, mineral or animal kingdoms do not fail us. I believe, then, that when the deposits of coal are exhausted we shall heat and warm ourselves with water. Water will be the coal of the future."
"I should like to see that," observed the sailor.
"You were born too soon, Pencroft," returned Neb, who only took part in the discussion by these words.”
Jules Verne, The Mysterious Island.
And now in 2019, it is all coming together, Ørsted the latest developer to submit a bid into the offshore wind tender for Hollandse Kust Zuid 3&4, having lined up financing for the project.
As part of its bid the company is also committed to establish green hydrogen projects that will take power generated from its Dutch offshore wind farms.
"We believe that our bid for Holland Coast South 3&4 offers significant benefits for the Dutch society in terms of clean and cost-competitive energy as well as industrial development," Henrik Poulsen, CEO and President of Orsted, said.
"We are ready to scale-up and bring down costs of green hydrogen like we have done with offshore wind," he said.
Orsted is currently building the nearby 752 MW Borssele 1&2 wind farm. Due for completion by Q1 2021, Borssele 1&2 will be Netherlands' largest offshore wind farm to date.
This year, Orsted will build an operations & maintenance (O&M) base for Borssele 1&2 in Vlissingen, Zeeland. The base will create 50-100 permanent and highly skilled jobs in Zeeland for the operational lifetime of the facility.
Orsted sees the U.S. offshore wind market as a key growth area and the company has recently strengthened its presence through a series of recent acquisitions and partnerships.
So Ørsted in to Hydrogen fuel ?
Whatever next?
Shell in to Electricity :
Shell aims to become world's largest electricity company
Oil and gas major Royal Dutch Shell will become the world's largest electricity company by the 2030s if it achieves its goals for cutting greenhouse emissions, Maarten Wetselaar, Shell’s director of gas and new energies, said at a conference in Houston.
As the world moves towards an electrification of energy supplies, Shell could expand its power business to the same size as its oil and gas operations, Wetselaar told the Financial Times.
This expansion would include power trading and the supply of power and equipment and would require returns on capital of 8 to 12% over the period, Wetselaar said.
Shell sees major opportunities in the decentralized power market, where it believes it has an advantage over established power utilities that own conventional coal and nuclear power plants. Shell believes it is well-placed to deploy advanced technologies and trading services in decentralized networks.
Shell recently entered the U.S. offshore wind market and is developing floating wind technologies. Other recent investments include the acquisition of German energy storage group Sonnen and UK power supplier First Utility.
By 2020, Shell plans to invest $1 to $2 billion a year in new energy technologies including electricity.
“We will do that for a number of years,” Wetselaar said.
“And then we will scale it up, because otherwise we will never get there,” he said
These are truly the futures of Power Generation.
The world's home of commercial nuclear power, West Cumbria, after failing to build any new nuclear power stations, now decides to re-open coal mines (albeit for coking, for is it, steel production)?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-4762...
Could we melt down the old nuclear power plant steel components, wasn't there a huge steel mill in West Cumbria. If the original metal is contaminated int he plants that need to be decommissioned why don't we recycle it to be put in new ones to prevent new resources being contaminated?
Had lunch with a friend at the weekend whom works with Network Rail. I asked him why couldn't the rail lines electricity be used to transfer electricity when the grid is faulty due to windmills. They're really worried in Network Rail with all the newer electric trains and / if the HS2s etc etc get built (Network Rail now being the UK biggest electricity user) that in brownouts, transport infrastructure will be hit....."Heysham reactors off the bars, sorry sir we've had to close the West Coast Main Line, buses up the M6 from Newton to Shap".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-4762...
Could we melt down the old nuclear power plant steel components, wasn't there a huge steel mill in West Cumbria. If the original metal is contaminated int he plants that need to be decommissioned why don't we recycle it to be put in new ones to prevent new resources being contaminated?
Had lunch with a friend at the weekend whom works with Network Rail. I asked him why couldn't the rail lines electricity be used to transfer electricity when the grid is faulty due to windmills. They're really worried in Network Rail with all the newer electric trains and / if the HS2s etc etc get built (Network Rail now being the UK biggest electricity user) that in brownouts, transport infrastructure will be hit....."Heysham reactors off the bars, sorry sir we've had to close the West Coast Main Line, buses up the M6 from Newton to Shap".
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