The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
PushedDover said:
It’s identified in the article - the wrong turbines. Hence froze. Hence no power
Don’t blame wind power but the accountants and the procurement departments that settled on the turbines.
It’s like crashing your car and blaming the car. Except you were on ice. In P-Zeros
The problem comes when the bean counters quote the science, in a warming climate cold extremes will become less frequent , especially in areas unaccustomed to such conditions.Don’t blame wind power but the accountants and the procurement departments that settled on the turbines.
It’s like crashing your car and blaming the car. Except you were on ice. In P-Zeros
From the admittedly little I have read on the situation in the US and Texas in particular, the current level of demand is by no means unprecedented, or even something outside of what would be planned for in a normal year.....
BUT
Their usual periods of high demand are in the summer, when aircon load is high, and not in the winter. The cold weather has caused an unprecedented level of failures of the thermal kit, with far more than expected being unreliable in these record low temps.
Whichever way you cut it, what has happened is an almighty clusterf
k and a failure of the system, not of one type of generation. It also appears to have been badly handled by the system operator, the usual practice is to turn off all the industrial usage before getting anywhere near homeowners, rather than default to rolling blackouts.
I did also see that while temps this week are -15 degrees, by the weekend/next week they are back up to 19 degrees! A swing of 34 degrees in one week. Crazy.
BUT
Their usual periods of high demand are in the summer, when aircon load is high, and not in the winter. The cold weather has caused an unprecedented level of failures of the thermal kit, with far more than expected being unreliable in these record low temps.
Whichever way you cut it, what has happened is an almighty clusterf
k and a failure of the system, not of one type of generation. It also appears to have been badly handled by the system operator, the usual practice is to turn off all the industrial usage before getting anywhere near homeowners, rather than default to rolling blackouts. I did also see that while temps this week are -15 degrees, by the weekend/next week they are back up to 19 degrees! A swing of 34 degrees in one week. Crazy.
Gary C said:
Can't see anyone building another reactor apart from EDF who are psychologically wedded to them until the Government makes it happen.
Would love to see UK PLC build a fleet of RR SMR's.
There was a rumour that Sizewell C would be SMR's but I haven't talked to anyone in the know for quite a while (but the person I got it from was highly involved with HPC so it wasn't just talk)
On other news, Heysham 1 graphite inspections have been a success which means the reactors are on target to at least meet their planned shutdown dates and now back in service
Any truth in rumours that Heysham 2 and Torness graphite bricks might be failing in an way previously unenvisged? Mate working on Hinkley C reckoned EdF are battening the hatches down cause of this for early sWould love to see UK PLC build a fleet of RR SMR's.
There was a rumour that Sizewell C would be SMR's but I haven't talked to anyone in the know for quite a while (but the person I got it from was highly involved with HPC so it wasn't just talk)
On other news, Heysham 1 graphite inspections have been a success which means the reactors are on target to at least meet their planned shutdown dates and now back in service
tdown of those reactors as there could be £7 billion generation lost if their shutdowns come forwards 2030 - 2023/4.He seemed fairly genuine and concerned about it. He has just been let go from EdF as a contractor secondee from Atkins as he is being replaced by displaced Torness personnel.
robinessex said:
Toltec said:
Evanivitch said:
PRTVR said:
Was watching a report and a family were taking turns in the car to warm up, it was that cold in the house,
everything was electric, except the car.
if we end up with all electric there will have to be contingency planning if we have blackouts and subzero temperatures.
Especially if wood burners are banned!everything was electric, except the car.
if we end up with all electric there will have to be contingency planning if we have blackouts and subzero temperatures.
Perhaps we'll all have hydrogen heaters, just in case!
Evanivitch said:
robinessex said:
Toltec said:
Evanivitch said:
PRTVR said:
Was watching a report and a family were taking turns in the car to warm up, it was that cold in the house,
everything was electric, except the car.
if we end up with all electric there will have to be contingency planning if we have blackouts and subzero temperatures.
Especially if wood burners are banned!everything was electric, except the car.
if we end up with all electric there will have to be contingency planning if we have blackouts and subzero temperatures.
Perhaps we'll all have hydrogen heaters, just in case!
- regretsellingoffmeGranscoalhouseofNuttySlacktosomeblokeonacanalboat
Evanivitch said:
Don't fancy running a diesel gen set for heating!
With the various noises on here about a month ago around astronomical electricity prices and very close calls on the grid, plus some of my wife’s friends having Christmas ruined by a substation surge on Christmas Eve, I bought myself a 2.8kw petrol gen set in a sale. It won’t heat the house but it’ll give me probably 1 warm room, a microwave and lights.[quote=Corvid-2020][quote=Gary C]Can't see anyone building another reactor apart from EDF who are psychologically wedded to them until the Government makes it happen.
Would love to see UK PLC build a fleet of RR SMR's.
There was a rumour that Sizewell C would be SMR's but I haven't talked to anyone in the know for quite a while (but the person I got it from was highly involved with HPC so it wasn't just talk)
On other news, Heysham 1 graphite inspections have been a success which means the reactors are on target to at least meet their planned shutdown dates and now back in service
Been involved in a at distance consultancy role with some SMRs, though nowt for last 12 months.
RR idea, take engine from boat, turn it right way around for land. E only, no heat.
USA consortia (NUScale???? at a guess as I don't know end client) looked to be along the way pretty much into reg process, proper inherent safe E power and heat process for industrial users.
There was talk of some Thorium reactors in Darlington, but I think that went the same way as Tees Valley Airport. Vapour Plant.
UKAEA; looking to blow up Rotherham with a mini fusion reactor (CHIMERA).
4 blokes (he/she/it blokes to use the woke e-mail signature their company has) in a shed in Wrexham look quite far on with their NuScale copy for the UK market. Heat and Fluid flow tests on the way (Bangor Uni facility for full scale?), interesting under the radar single fuel channel concept!
Would love to see UK PLC build a fleet of RR SMR's.
There was a rumour that Sizewell C would be SMR's but I haven't talked to anyone in the know for quite a while (but the person I got it from was highly involved with HPC so it wasn't just talk)
On other news, Heysham 1 graphite inspections have been a success which means the reactors are on target to at least meet their planned shutdown dates and now back in service
Been involved in a at distance consultancy role with some SMRs, though nowt for last 12 months.
RR idea, take engine from boat, turn it right way around for land. E only, no heat.
USA consortia (NUScale???? at a guess as I don't know end client) looked to be along the way pretty much into reg process, proper inherent safe E power and heat process for industrial users.
There was talk of some Thorium reactors in Darlington, but I think that went the same way as Tees Valley Airport. Vapour Plant.
UKAEA; looking to blow up Rotherham with a mini fusion reactor (CHIMERA).
4 blokes (he/she/it blokes to use the woke e-mail signature their company has) in a shed in Wrexham look quite far on with their NuScale copy for the UK market. Heat and Fluid flow tests on the way (Bangor Uni facility for full scale?), interesting under the radar single fuel channel concept!
Corvid-2020 said:
Gary C said:
Can't see anyone building another reactor apart from EDF who are psychologically wedded to them until the Government makes it happen.
Would love to see UK PLC build a fleet of RR SMR's.
There was a rumour that Sizewell C would be SMR's but I haven't talked to anyone in the know for quite a while (but the person I got it from was highly involved with HPC so it wasn't just talk)
On other news, Heysham 1 graphite inspections have been a success which means the reactors are on target to at least meet their planned shutdown dates and now back in service
Any truth in rumours that Heysham 2 and Torness graphite bricks might be failing in an way previously unenvisged? Mate working on Hinkley C reckoned EdF are battening the hatches down cause of this for early sWould love to see UK PLC build a fleet of RR SMR's.
There was a rumour that Sizewell C would be SMR's but I haven't talked to anyone in the know for quite a while (but the person I got it from was highly involved with HPC so it wasn't just talk)
On other news, Heysham 1 graphite inspections have been a success which means the reactors are on target to at least meet their planned shutdown dates and now back in service
tdown of those reactors as there could be £7 billion generation lost if their shutdowns come forwards 2030 - 2023/4.He seemed fairly genuine and concerned about it. He has just been let go from EdF as a contractor secondee from Atkins as he is being replaced by displaced Torness personnel.
Graphite inspections at Heysham 1 have shown not shown anything in recent inspection and the feeling at work is that the shutdown dates for Heysham 2 might be a bit longer than expected.
silentbrown said:
Err, no. I can't find the source but in the winter of '63 some coal power stations had to shut down because the coal stocks had frozen. and, I think coal delivery by rail wasn't working either.
Wonder if that ever happened after Merry Go Round trains were introduced. One of the innovations of the Beeching period.Evanivitch said:
Did you read my link!? The gas pipelines were closed, the gas powerstations shut down, then the nuclear and coal power stations fell over.
They have 25GW of installed wind in Texas, but they were 34GW short. Do the maths.
Thankfully they are sending emergency wind generators to solve the problem, or maybe not.They have 25GW of installed wind in Texas, but they were 34GW short. Do the maths.
https://www.axios.com/texas-power-outages-generato...
Might be worth considering the perverse incentives to install wind and renewables away from fossil and nuclear. Reliable not C02 should be the refrain. The UK might want to take note. All that global warming seems to be happening at -20 degrees.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Thankfully they are sending emergency wind generators to solve the problem, or maybe not.
https://www.axios.com/texas-power-outages-generato...
Might be worth considering the perverse incentives to install wind and renewables away from fossil and nuclear. Reliable not C02 should be the refrain. The UK might want to take note. All that global warming seems to be happening at -20 degrees.
https://www.axios.com/texas-power-outages-generato...
Might be worth considering the perverse incentives to install wind and renewables away from fossil and nuclear. Reliable not C02 should be the refrain. The UK might want to take note. All that global warming seems to be happening at -20 degrees.
You clearly have an axe to grind and very little knowledge.Let's forget CO2. What about energy security? UK doesn't have viable, accessible gas, coal, oil or uranium reserves.
So oil from Norway, USA, Algeria, Russian, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia. Great crowd. Gas from Norway, Qatar and Russia.
Gas is going to continue to be a huge part for years to come. But why waste it when we can use wind and solar to produce energy without imports, and then use the gas to fill the gaps?
Evanivitch said:
You clearly have an axe to grind and very little knowledge.Let's forget CO2. What about energy security? UK doesn't have viable, accessible gas, coal, oil or uranium reserves.
So oil from Norway, USA, Algeria, Russian, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia. Great crowd. Gas from Norway, Qatar and Russia.
Gas is going to continue to be a huge part for years to come. But why waste it when we can use wind and solar to produce energy without imports, and then use the gas to fill the gaps?
Wind and solar have proved in the UK this winter, that without 100 % backup, for extended periods of time, weeks not days, lights will be going out. Reliable and cheap on demand, not whenever there happens to be some wind. Demand based, not supply based focus is needed if we would like an economy we can afford.
Forget about CO2 ? Our entire energy network in fact, society is being re-engineered because of it, but you seem unwilling to want to discuss it.
I am sure the people freezing in Texas, may well have an axe to grind and reveling in their lack of knowledge that they cannot light or heat their homes in - 20 degrees. Arrogance comes before the blackout.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
My axe to grind is the same as anyone who happens to like their lights to work. Reliable and cheap energy. Renewables are neither reliable and in reality, proving cheap, and considering the various proposed options regarding massively expensive changes to energy distribution, generation and usage patterns, with the aim of C02 reduction as primary purpose, are going to have profound impacts on the UK.
Why do you think imported fuels will be cheap and reliable? We're at the whim of who will sell it to us. You remember when oil was $148 a barrel? QuantumTokoloshi said:
Wind and solar have proved in the UK this winter, that without 100 % backup, for extended periods of time, weeks not days, lights will be going out. Reliable and cheap on demand, not whenever there happens to be some wind. Demand based, not supply based focus is needed if we would like an economy we can afford.
I agree entirely that storage isn't going to fill the days of low wind. But what's wrong with having gas on standby and load following, keeping the gas stocks for when we really need them?QuantumTokoloshi said:
Forget about CO2 ? Our entire energy network in fact, society is being re-engineered because of it, but you seem unwilling to want to discuss it.
Our network was changing as soon as North Sea oil and gas started to decline. LNG terminals, pipelines from Norway, oil powerstations all closed. And we don't dig coal for power, we just use it for steel manufacturing. All of that was happening whether we had a CO2 agenda or not.QuantumTokoloshi said:
I am sure the people freezing in Texas, may well have an axe to grind and reveling in their lack of knowledge that they cannot light or heat their homes in - 20 degrees. Arrogance comes before the blackout.
Yeah I imagine they're pretty pissed off that the gas pipelines closed, the nuclear generators fell off grid, and someone didn't order deicers for the wind turbines.You're blind to reality.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
My axe to grind is the same as anyone who happens to like their lights to work. Reliable and cheap energy. Renewables are neither reliable and in reality, proving cheap, and considering the various proposed options regarding massively expensive changes to energy distribution, generation and usage patterns, with the aim of C02 reduction as primary purpose, are going to have profound impacts on the UK.
Wind and solar have proved in the UK this winter, that without 100 % backup, for extended periods of time, weeks not days, lights will be going out. Reliable and cheap on demand, not whenever there happens to be some wind. Demand based, not supply based focus is needed if we would like an economy we can afford.
Forget about CO2 ? Our entire energy network in fact, society is being re-engineered because of it, but you seem unwilling to want to discuss it.
I am sure the people freezing in Texas, may well have an axe to grind and reveling in their lack of knowledge that they cannot light or heat their homes in - 20 degrees. Arrogance comes before the blackout.
Worth remembering not a single coal station was actually shutdown due to CO2 emissions.Wind and solar have proved in the UK this winter, that without 100 % backup, for extended periods of time, weeks not days, lights will be going out. Reliable and cheap on demand, not whenever there happens to be some wind. Demand based, not supply based focus is needed if we would like an economy we can afford.
Forget about CO2 ? Our entire energy network in fact, society is being re-engineered because of it, but you seem unwilling to want to discuss it.
I am sure the people freezing in Texas, may well have an axe to grind and reveling in their lack of knowledge that they cannot light or heat their homes in - 20 degrees. Arrogance comes before the blackout.
And the Texas experience isn't caused by CO2 reduction either even though the media have cast it in that frame.
Not to say their are not concerns or difficulties on the horizon
QuantumTokoloshi said:
My axe to grind is the same as anyone who happens to like their lights to work. Reliable and cheap energy. Renewables are neither reliable and in reality, proving cheap, and considering the various proposed options regarding massively expensive changes to energy distribution, generation and usage patterns, with the aim of C02 reduction as primary purpose, are going to have profound impacts on the UK.
Wind and solar have proved in the UK this winter, that without 100 % backup, for extended periods of time, weeks not days, lights will be going out. Reliable and cheap on demand, not whenever there happens to be some wind. Demand based, not supply based focus is needed if we would like an economy we can afford.
Forget about CO2 ? Our entire energy network in fact, society is being re-engineered because of it, but you seem unwilling to want to discuss it.
I am sure the people freezing in Texas, may well have an axe to grind and reveling in their lack of knowledge that they cannot light or heat their homes in - 20 degrees. Arrogance comes before the blackout.
The Texas situation is particularly bad because their network is not linked into a federal grid. So they could avoid federal costs. That's libertarianism for you. Now they're suffering badly and there's nothing the federal government can do to quickly provide them power. Wind and solar have proved in the UK this winter, that without 100 % backup, for extended periods of time, weeks not days, lights will be going out. Reliable and cheap on demand, not whenever there happens to be some wind. Demand based, not supply based focus is needed if we would like an economy we can afford.
Forget about CO2 ? Our entire energy network in fact, society is being re-engineered because of it, but you seem unwilling to want to discuss it.
I am sure the people freezing in Texas, may well have an axe to grind and reveling in their lack of knowledge that they cannot light or heat their homes in - 20 degrees. Arrogance comes before the blackout.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2003/08/why-te...
So in effect by the Texas system going alone to say cost and stick it to the man, they've made themselves vulnerable for events just like this. Juice can't be redirected from areas that can supply, and their standards can be local ones which appear at face value to have been perhaps a little too profit orientated.
This has NOTHING to do with renewables. Something like 80-90% of Texas energy ones from fossil fuels.
silentbrown said:
PushedDover said:
QuantumTokoloshi
In the light of what has been posted since you raised the concerns- what is you opinion now on why there is a Texas Powercut ?
I suspect it's still "buttery newables". In the light of what has been posted since you raised the concerns- what is you opinion now on why there is a Texas Powercut ?
t, blaming random out-of-state Democrats and legislation that isn't even proposed yet, despite the ERCOT board being all GoP.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff