The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
CraigyMc said:
Several of the coal stations still exist, as standby. In other words, it's possible to both shut them down and not be caught short.
Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
Only if you pay for it and maintain it.Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
These stations were never designed to be shutdown for long periods. One of our units (which are actually Parsons 660MW sets fitted to coal stations) was shutdown for 6 months and we had to do all sorts of things to preserve it in good condition. Even then when we started up, we had lots of problems (though daft things like LP spindle windage caps falling off are simple to rectify). We also wrote off about 40,000 litres of lub oil due to bacterial growth. We had to run all the installed heater systems on the generator to keep it dry and therefore the stator water systems, generator coolant systems. I spend most of my time for 4 months with the Chemistry department on preservation.
To use an old CEGB coal station as a quick reserve (ie within minutes) it has to be already running. To use it as a standby (an hour or two) means the oil systems and condensate systems need to be mainly in service and clean. To use it as a winter reserve means a lot of summer preservation techniques.
Not a cheap option and certainly not as simple as just turning it off then back on again.
Also, the 'several units' are only the ones still running. The rest, while some buildings may still stand, are not recoverable.
Of course, we would have to not comply with the large combustion plant directive to do this, which might cost us even more.
Gas plants are far more suitable for standby units.
CraigyMc said:
Several of the coal stations still exist, as standby. In other words, it's possible to both shut them down and not be caught short.
Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
Think you're a few years out of date there.... Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
SBR no longer exists (as far as I know) and certainly some of the coal stations which were on it will never generate again.
The only stations which exist are West Burton, Drax (5+6), and Ratcliffe in GB. Of those West Burton is due to close in September and Drax did announce the closure date for theirs too, but I forget when it was. Maybe this September as well?
Condi said:
CraigyMc said:
Several of the coal stations still exist, as standby. In other words, it's possible to both shut them down and not be caught short.
Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
Think you're a few years out of date there.... Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
SBR no longer exists (as far as I know) and certainly some of the coal stations which were on it will never generate again.
The only stations which exist are West Burton, Drax (5+6), and Ratcliffe in GB. Of those West Burton is due to close in September and Drax did announce the closure date for theirs too, but I forget when it was. Maybe this September as well?
Anyone got the number for RR's SMR division?
CraigyMc said:
Condi said:
CraigyMc said:
Several of the coal stations still exist, as standby. In other words, it's possible to both shut them down and not be caught short.
Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
Think you're a few years out of date there.... Google "supplemental balancing reserve (SBR)".
SBR no longer exists (as far as I know) and certainly some of the coal stations which were on it will never generate again.
The only stations which exist are West Burton, Drax (5+6), and Ratcliffe in GB. Of those West Burton is due to close in September and Drax did announce the closure date for theirs too, but I forget when it was. Maybe this September as well?
Anyone got the number for RR's SMR division?
You were talking about existing coal stations and the shutdown ones are dead. The remaining ones are not long for this country and not really as suitable as they would need to be for that duty.
If you mean its possible to build backup stations, yes your right but your post seemed to indicate we could just use the old CEGB stations.
Now SMR's, I agree. I think they could be the answer but none have been built.
Edited by Gary C on Thursday 25th February 22:44
ked up". As in, oh balls.
Condi said:
Gary C said:
Now SMR's, I agree. I think they could be the answer but none have been built.
Or even fully designed. Tested. Signed off by regulators. Had planning permission approved. If in 20 years the UK has a still day it'll be good to know they're available.
I believe from conversation I had with someone senior that SMR's were possible for Sizewell C but getting regulatory approval would probably have to be available now to meet any realistic program.
Then we could have a fleet of them.
Each one different from the one before until we finally get them right and dump them for something different ;}
Gary C said:
Each one different from the one before until we finally get them right and dump them for something different ;}
Naturally, because we have to keep all the different UK engineering companies in jobs.... oh wait.... If RR are the only people left then maybe we can have 1 standard design with interchangeable parts! CraigyMc said:
Gary C said:
Each one different from the one before until we finally get them right and dump them for something different ;}
The RR way is test until break, fix break, test again.At least it was when I was reading Stanley Hooker's autobiography.
It was a dig at the UK nuclear industries performance so far.
Each magnox then each AGR were so vastly different from each other, they were essentially new designs. Ok Heysham 2 and Torness went back to the basic Hinkley design, but even then no parts were interchangable and we even used different turbines on each station to keep Parsons and GEC in business and even completely different computer systems to control the same reactor (Ferranti Argus for Torness and a hybrid CEGB Honeywell/Intel system for Heysham)
Mind you RR's Autolog software was don't test it, try to fix it, give up
robinessex said:
Isn't the point that the emphasis by governments and authorities worldwide to SHIFT TO RENEWABLES? a bad move. Then, sure as eggs are eggs, at some time in the future, it will all go pear-shaped again. Texas is an example, although it wasn't solely due to having renewables, just poor planning.
This, exactly. The concern is based on the piss poor planning currently surfacing, when questions which should have been asked before the climate change bill and net zero commitment was undertaken, are now only being asked, hoping that as yet to be delivered technologies can solve the self created problem.
Committing to "net zero" before you even have the vaguest idea how you are going to do it, self evident gargantuan costs involved, no matter which as yet theoretical strategy is adopted, disruptions it will cause to the economy and society, and never mind the increased potential for Texas style outage. Reliable, affordable and clean. The CO2 bias potentially losses us reliable and affordable, and clean is debatable.
Little late to start asking these questions ?
https://greenallianceblog.org.uk/2021/03/02/we-sti...
Hope we all have deep pockets, it is going to be expensive.
https://www.ft.com/content/fdbfd592-4455-44be-a1b1...
QuantumTokoloshi said:
This, exactly.
The concern is based on the piss poor planning currently surfacing, when questions which should have been asked before the climate change bill and net zero commitment was undertaken, are now only being asked, hoping that as yet to be delivered technologies can solve the self created problem.
Committing to "net zero" before you even have the vaguest idea how you are going to do it, self evident gargantuan costs involved, no matter which as yet theoretical strategy is adopted, disruptions it will cause to the economy and society, and never mind the increased potential for Texas style outage. Reliable, affordable and clean. The CO2 bias potentially losses us reliable and affordable, and clean is debatable.
Little late to start asking these questions ?
https://greenallianceblog.org.uk/2021/03/02/we-sti...
Hope we all have deep pockets, it is going to be expensive.
https://www.ft.com/content/fdbfd592-4455-44be-a1b1...
Well, if you don't commit, it will never happen. There is always a reason to extend it a little longer.The concern is based on the piss poor planning currently surfacing, when questions which should have been asked before the climate change bill and net zero commitment was undertaken, are now only being asked, hoping that as yet to be delivered technologies can solve the self created problem.
Committing to "net zero" before you even have the vaguest idea how you are going to do it, self evident gargantuan costs involved, no matter which as yet theoretical strategy is adopted, disruptions it will cause to the economy and society, and never mind the increased potential for Texas style outage. Reliable, affordable and clean. The CO2 bias potentially losses us reliable and affordable, and clean is debatable.
Little late to start asking these questions ?
https://greenallianceblog.org.uk/2021/03/02/we-sti...
Hope we all have deep pockets, it is going to be expensive.
https://www.ft.com/content/fdbfd592-4455-44be-a1b1...
The questions have been asked a long time ago and the grid has done a lot of work to stabilise itself.
As we move into the phase with no coal and the loss of all but one/two of the nuclear stations, thats a lot to replace. I dont want to say everything's fine but its not like those that understand these things are not aware of exactly how much we need and how much we have.
Gary C said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
This, exactly.
The concern is based on the piss poor planning currently surfacing, when questions which should have been asked before the climate change bill and net zero commitment was undertaken, are now only being asked, hoping that as yet to be delivered technologies can solve the self created problem.
Committing to "net zero" before you even have the vaguest idea how you are going to do it, self evident gargantuan costs involved, no matter which as yet theoretical strategy is adopted, disruptions it will cause to the economy and society, and never mind the increased potential for Texas style outage. Reliable, affordable and clean. The CO2 bias potentially losses us reliable and affordable, and clean is debatable.
Little late to start asking these questions ?
https://greenallianceblog.org.uk/2021/03/02/we-sti...
Hope we all have deep pockets, it is going to be expensive.
https://www.ft.com/content/fdbfd592-4455-44be-a1b1...
Well, if you don't commit, it will never happen. There is always a reason to extend it a little longer.The concern is based on the piss poor planning currently surfacing, when questions which should have been asked before the climate change bill and net zero commitment was undertaken, are now only being asked, hoping that as yet to be delivered technologies can solve the self created problem.
Committing to "net zero" before you even have the vaguest idea how you are going to do it, self evident gargantuan costs involved, no matter which as yet theoretical strategy is adopted, disruptions it will cause to the economy and society, and never mind the increased potential for Texas style outage. Reliable, affordable and clean. The CO2 bias potentially losses us reliable and affordable, and clean is debatable.
Little late to start asking these questions ?
https://greenallianceblog.org.uk/2021/03/02/we-sti...
Hope we all have deep pockets, it is going to be expensive.
https://www.ft.com/content/fdbfd592-4455-44be-a1b1...
The questions have been asked a long time ago and the grid has done a lot of work to stabilise itself.
As we move into the phase with no coal and the loss of all but one/two of the nuclear stations, thats a lot to replace. I dont want to say everything's fine but its not like those that understand these things are not aware of exactly how much we need and how much we have.
Potential new fusion station at Ratcliffe - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...
alangla said:
Potential new fusion station at Ratcliffe - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...
Could be built... You could build a giant statue of me dressed as a fat he-man astride battle cat but it's unlikely.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
alangla said:
Potential new fusion station at Ratcliffe - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...
Could be built... You could build a giant statue of me dressed as a fat he-man astride battle cat but it's unlikely.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
alangla said:
Potential new fusion station at Ratcliffe - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...
Could be built... You could build a giant statue of me dressed as a fat he-man astride battle cat but it's unlikely.
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