The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

[mikey_b]

hidetheelephants said:

Dobbin and a cart will not travel 150miles in a day, 3 days would be good going unless you want the poor thing to end up at the glue factory. Advancement of civilisation has always been predicated on access to cheaper and denser energy sources, I'm surprised anyone is willing to bet against a million year trend on such a flimsy basis.

I’m not for a moment suggesting a horse makes a sensible car replacement, and you are completely correct that society advances as energy becomes cheaper. Our challenge now is to continue that process without wrecking the climate.

[Mr Whippy]

Wrecking the climate?

You do realise it’s self ‘wrecking’ any way? Ie, climate changes irrespective of human activity.


It’s going to get a hotter, apparently, but that’s not wrecked, it’s just different.
And it could get a colder. And we might adapt, or we might not.

[Condi]

hidetheelephants said:

obbin and a cart will not travel 150miles in a day, 3 days would be good going unless you want the poor thing to end up at the glue factory. Advancement of civilisation has always been predicated on access to cheaper and denser energy sources, I'm surprised anyone is willing to bet against a million year trend on such a flimsy basis.

Yes, but until 250 (ish) years ago those "cheaper and denser" energy sources were human, animal or renewable, even the cheapest source of manpower - slaves - were a valuable commodity. It's only since the advent of carbon fuels that energy has become so cheap we have become wasteful. Now it's not so cheap.

The point wasn't about speed, it was about the fact that to drive you from London to Manchester involves moving 1500kg of metal to transport 80kg of meat. 95% of what is going to Manchester isn't "useful" weight, it's the weight of the vehicle. Energy has become so cheap we don't see an issue with that, whereas maybe we should?

[Evanivitch]

Circa 15GW wind, few GW solar, coal off and gas at minimum, seems to be formula for -£60/MWh electricity.

[Talksteer]

Condi said:

hidetheelephants said:

obbin and a cart will not travel 150miles in a day, 3 days would be good going unless you want the poor thing to end up at the glue factory. Advancement of civilisation has always been predicated on access to cheaper and denser energy sources, I'm surprised anyone is willing to bet against a million year trend on such a flimsy basis.

Yes, but until 250 (ish) years ago those "cheaper and denser" energy sources were human, animal or renewable, even the cheapest source of manpower - slaves - were a valuable commodity. It's only since the advent of carbon fuels that energy has become so cheap we have become wasteful. Now it's not so cheap.

The point wasn't about speed, it was about the fact that to drive you from London to Manchester involves moving 1500kg of metal to transport 80kg of meat. 95% of what is going to Manchester isn't "useful" weight, it's the weight of the vehicle. Energy has become so cheap we don't see an issue with that, whereas maybe we should?

Efficiency is relative, a car fully loaded is actually pretty efficient compared to any of the alternatives particularly once speed is taken into account.

[alangla]

Evanivitch said:

Circa 15GW wind, few GW solar, coal off and gas at minimum, seems to be formula for -£60/MWh electricity.

We’re still importing loads from the continent though. Given the current conditions I’d have thought we’d have been giving it away to anyone who could take it, unless the French, Dutch & Norwegians also have more power than they know what to do with

[Gary C]

Talksteer said:

The need for fueling team seems a little surprising, is that because fuel processing is basically continuous and there is always fuel stringer part way through assembly or disassembly?

What's the comparable number for Sizewell?

There is obviously a PWR which can be operated by a number of FTEs barely into double figures but we can't talk about it.

Yes, the fuel route process is continuous. We are always putting it into the reactors or building new stringers ready to put in.

But a large driver for the minimum numbers is the Emergency Plan which requires a certain number of people on shift to cover the initial response to an emergency.

[Talksteer]

Gary C said:

Yes, the fuel route process is continuous. We are always putting it into the reactors or building new stringers ready to put in.

But a large driver for the minimum numbers is the Emergency Plan which requires a certain number of people on shift to cover the initial response to an emergency.

Which is a little odd given a AGRs grace period for most accidents seems to be about a day!

Plenty of time to bring a team in.

[dvs_dave]

Mr Whippy said:

Wrecking the climate?

You do realise it’s self ‘wrecking’ any way? Ie, climate changes irrespective of human activity.


It’s going to get a hotter, apparently, but that’s not wrecked, it’s just different.
And it could get a colder. And we might adapt, or we might not.

Climate does change naturally. Although what you and your ilk are conveniently ignoring is the rate at which the climate is changing, which is unprecedented and not natural. That’s what the problem is, and you’d do well to pull your head out of that sandpit of denial.

Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 24th March 20:31

[Gary C]

Talksteer said:

Gary C said:

Yes, the fuel route process is continuous. We are always putting it into the reactors or building new stringers ready to put in.

But a large driver for the minimum numbers is the Emergency Plan which requires a certain number of people on shift to cover the initial response to an emergency.

Which is a little odd given a AGRs grace period for most accidents seems to be about a day!

Plenty of time to bring a team in.

The really big TMI stuff yes, but still a leak of coolant or a big fire would need immediate attention even if its not the sort of INES level 1 event, so we train to investigate the source of the event, fight fires and rescue casualties. The offsite support teams train to make temporary repairs etc.

[Gary C]

dvs_dave said:

Mr Whippy said:

Wrecking the climate?

You do realise it’s self ‘wrecking’ any way? Ie, climate changes irrespective of human activity.


It’s going to get a hotter, apparently, but that’s not wrecked, it’s just different.
And it could get a colder. And we might adapt, or we might not.

Climate does change naturally. Although what you and your ilk are conveniently ignoring is the rate at which the climate is changing, which is unprecedented and not natural. That’s what the problem is, and you’d do well to pull your head out of that sandpit of denial.

Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 24th March 20:31

We have tried to keep the climate debate largely out of this thread, but recognising that it is driving the energy industry, concentrating on what changes its going to bring and how they are going to be implemented.

If we can keep it like that and leave the actual climate debate in 'that other thread' I think, so much the better.

[Mikey G]

Looks like we are seeing a big oversupply at the moment, spot wholesale prices have been negative for a number of hours.
Just checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/ and it looks like a few of the French reactors have also been shutdown this weekend and we are seeing a large import ourselves from France maybe to shed there own oversupply?

[Evanivitch]

Mikey G said:

Looks like we are seeing a big oversupply at the moment, spot wholesale prices have been negative for a number of hours.
Just checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/ and it looks like a few of the French reactors have also been shutdown this weekend and we are seeing a large import ourselves from France maybe to shed there own oversupply?

Quite a bit of wind still on the grid and a good showing of solar too at the moment. Very low carbon at the moment (according to drax electric insights) but I've no idea how they allocate the 5GW of imports.

[alangla]

Looks like the government are going all in on wind then. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/bt-tow...
I guess putting turbines in locations with high demand will save on transmission costs

What’s today’s date?

[Cobnapint]

Caroline Lucas will be making a note of that for their manifesto.

[robinessex]

alangla said:

Looks like the government are going all in on wind then. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/bt-tow...
I guess putting turbines in locations with high demand will save on transmission costs

What’s today’s date?

You can bin that idea. None of those structures have been designed for the high lateral loads a windy thing of a decent size experiences. Typical lack of knowledge rubbish by politicians

[Klippie]

Any news on the SMR's from Rolls Royce, its been a while since I've read anything about them, but I'll bet the government are dragging their heels on this to keep promoting its mental net zero agenda that they have going.

[alangla]

robinessex said:

alangla said:

Looks like the government are going all in on wind then. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/bt-tow...
I guess putting turbines in locations with high demand will save on transmission costs

What’s today’s date?

You can bin that idea. None of those structures have been designed for the high lateral loads a windy thing of a decent size experiences. Typical lack of knowledge rubbish by politicians

Someone hasn’t checked the calendar

[robinessex]

alangla said:

robinessex said:

alangla said:

Looks like the government are going all in on wind then. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/bt-tow...
I guess putting turbines in locations with high demand will save on transmission costs

What’s today’s date?

You can bin that idea. None of those structures have been designed for the high lateral loads a windy thing of a decent size experiences. Typical lack of knowledge rubbish by politicians

Someone hasn’t checked the calendar

I know what the date is, but that has been suggested before, seriously !!!

[dvs_dave]

robinessex said:

I know what the date is, but that has been suggested before, seriously !!!

Oh come on. Have the humility to admit you fell for it.