Explosions reported in Manchester?

[rscott]

227bhp said:

rscott said:

227bhp said:

I'm sorry I CBA to wade through all 54 pages in this thread, but how come there are 15 people missing?

I'm assuming some are unconscious and injured in hospital. May well have lost any ID or phone at the time.

No that makes no sense. People are out there looking for missing relatives, where have they gone? If it was as simple as them being injured in hospital they would be reunited, we are talking about a relatively small amount of people injured/dead here, not something of Tsunami proportions with hundreds/thousands of people being swept away, killed or injured.

There was some poor chap filmed showing people in the street pics of a girl asking if they'd seen her, wtf is that all about?

BBC reported that one was only identified this evening- she is in hospital with serious injuries.

[BlueHave]

plasticpig said:

jsf said:

If you are referring to the IRA bombing of Manchester, it didn't take decades to get over, we were back to normal business the next day, we just had a bit of building to do and disruption to business to deal with.

This event is different because of the nature of the atrocity, it will sadly affect a lot of young people, but I have faith in the people of Manchester to work together to get through this and manage the required perspective. It's depressing to know kids like in my own family will now be thinking about this event when they plan to visit a concert or event, but they will get through it with the good sensible guidance the majority of households in the UK provide to their children.

I was in city centre on the day of the IRA bombing. I was in St Anne"s square when the police began the evacuation. Very frightening experience at the time; but a lot of positive things resulted from that bomb.

Massive amount of investment and regeneration of that part of the city which vastly improved the area. Arguably it would of happened anyway but not as quickly or on such a large scale.

Unfortunately there will be no such silver linings this time.

Somehow I don't think a new and improved foyer in the Manchester Arena is at the forefront of peoples minds at present.

[Jonmx]

jakesmith said:

Jonmx said:

the gradual erosion of civil liberties

Communications technology has progressed exponentially in an incredibly short amount of time
Without being able to read most of what is being sent via all these new digital channels, secret services may as well not be able to read any of it
The result is mass data collection
I am not one of those people who says 'I have nothing to fear or hide' but I have a more pragmatic approach. I don't inherently trust or think that government agencies are particularly competent but... much of the time these terrorists were 'known' or 'watched' yet they were still able to commit atrocities. With that in mind, how much resource bandwidth is given to Joe Blogs. Not a lot I would imagine.

It's a fair point, but we simply don't know how much resource is dedicated to Joe Bloggs. If Senor dhead last night was unknown to the Police and Security services then it could theoretically lead to the justification of more intrusive data collection.
As I said, I have no problem with any measure being used to prevent attacks, indeed I think that it can be too difficult for the Police to gain a RIPA authorisation to surveil a suspect. This is often because of the potential Article 8 human rights violations in relation to collateral surveillance of those around the suspect. Like you say, these people are often they are known to the authorities, yet manage to carry out attacks. That is a ridiculous situation and the appropriate powers should be in place to prevent that from happening. Stronger powers to allow directed surveillance would be far more effective than mass data collection from the entire UK population.

[toastybase]

227bhp said:

rscott said:

227bhp said:

I'm sorry I CBA to wade through all 54 pages in this thread, but how come there are 15 people missing?

I'm assuming some are unconscious and injured in hospital. May well have lost any ID or phone at the time.

No that makes no sense. People are out there looking for missing relatives, where have they gone? If it was as simple as them being injured in hospital they would be reunited, we are talking about a relatively small amount of people injured/dead here, not something of Tsunami proportions with hundreds/thousands of people being swept away, killed or injured.

There was some poor chap filmed showing people in the street pics of a girl asking if they'd seen her, wtf is that all about?

Could it be a case of broken/lost phone, staying over at a friends and then making their way back today against delayed transport etc? That's all I can think of. It does seem odd though

[alfie2244]

Good job I didn't post my reply to Zod's drunken rant

[227bhp]

rscott said:

227bhp said:

rscott said:

227bhp said:

I'm sorry I CBA to wade through all 54 pages in this thread, but how come there are 15 people missing?

I'm assuming some are unconscious and injured in hospital. May well have lost any ID or phone at the time.

No that makes no sense. People are out there looking for missing relatives, where have they gone? If it was as simple as them being injured in hospital they would be reunited, we are talking about a relatively small amount of people injured/dead here, not something of Tsunami proportions with hundreds/thousands of people being swept away, killed or injured.

There was some poor chap filmed showing people in the street pics of a girl asking if they'd seen her, wtf is that all about?

BBC reported that one was only identified this evening- she is in hospital with serious injuries.

No they showed 4 or 5, Telegraph online says 15.

[jakesmith]

Jonmx said:

It's a fair point, but we simply don't know how much resource is dedicated to Joe Bloggs. If Senor dhead last night was unknown to the Police and Security services then it could theoretically lead to the justification of more intrusive data collection.
As I said, I have no problem with any measure being used to prevent attacks, indeed I think that it can be too difficult for the Police to gain a RIPA authorisation to surveil a suspect. This is often because of the potential Article 8 human rights violations in relation to collateral surveillance of those around the suspect. Like you say, these people are often they are known to the authorities, yet manage to carry out attacks. That is a ridiculous situation and the appropriate powers should be in place to prevent that from happening. Stronger powers to allow directed surveillance would be far more effective than mass data collection from the entire UK population.

This is pure speculation as I have no knowledge of the workings of intelligence but... as soon as a lead is discovered they need to be able to assess the risk. Where does that lead come from? A report from the community or police? Or online work? How many of these leads do they get per day, week? I would think they only start following people around once they are pretty sure, and that sort of surveillance probably can't be set up overnight.
Once they have an identity, someone's name, that could enable them to block an attack planned later that day. These attackers are often active online. Without being able to go back & audit their communications history I don't really see how they can prevent these attacks at all.

[audidoody]

I was speaking to an Asian Muslim friend about this. He was expressing his disgust and I asked why the Muslim Council of Great Britain didn't do more to condemn these psychos. He said the problem is coming from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Wahhabis are ploughing millions into the UK Muslim community, building and running mosques. Rich students from Wahhabi families are encouraged to engage with and groom UK Muslim students in the Universities.He also said that if ISIS took me and him prisoner they would kill him first because he is a Shia. The problem is very complex and as long as the UK and the West are in thrall to the Saudis for oil, is not going to change any time soon.

[227bhp]

D-Angle said:

rscott said:

227bhp said:

I'm sorry I CBA to wade through all 54 pages in this thread, but how come there are 15 people missing?

I'm assuming some are unconscious and injured in hospital. May well have lost any ID or phone at the time.

It's also possible that they have not been able to identify some of the bodies yet. Only a few have been named so far out of 22 which suggests this process isn't complete.

That's possibly it, but defies belief that 24hrs in they can't identify what they have in front of them?
It kind of points towards the fact that there must be not much left of them at all and that is quite sickening.
Sorry for bringing this up if so.

[dandarez]

audidoody said:

I was speaking to an Asian Muslim friend about this. He was expressing his disgust and I asked why the Muslim Council of Great Britain didn't do more to condemn these psychos. He said the problem is coming from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Wahhabis are ploughing millions into the UK Muslim community, building and running mosques. Rich students from Wahhabi families are encouraged to engage with and groom UK Muslim students in the Universities.He also said that if ISIS took me and him prisoner they would kill him first because he is a Shia. The problem is very complex and as long as the UK and the West are in thrall to the Saudis for oil, is not going to change any time soon.

You know why?

Money talks.
Always has, always will.

[rscott]

dandarez said:

audidoody said:

I was speaking to an Asian Muslim friend about this. He was expressing his disgust and I asked why the Muslim Council of Great Britain didn't do more to condemn these psychos. He said the problem is coming from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Wahhabis are ploughing millions into the UK Muslim community, building and running mosques. Rich students from Wahhabi families are encouraged to engage with and groom UK Muslim students in the Universities.He also said that if ISIS took me and him prisoner they would kill him first because he is a Shia. The problem is very complex and as long as the UK and the West are in thrall to the Saudis for oil, is not going to change any time soon.

You know why?

Money talks.
Always has, always will.

This was posted by someone else earlier in the thread- https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/n... .
Saudi alleged to have channelled around £6bn toward charitable organisations to promote Wahhabism over Sunni Islam. Also alleged around 15-20% of that has gone to terrorist groups like Al Qaida

[Yipper]

Jonmx said:

jakesmith said:

Jonmx said:

the gradual erosion of civil liberties

Communications technology has progressed exponentially in an incredibly short amount of time
Without being able to read most of what is being sent via all these new digital channels, secret services may as well not be able to read any of it
The result is mass data collection
I am not one of those people who says 'I have nothing to fear or hide' but I have a more pragmatic approach. I don't inherently trust or think that government agencies are particularly competent but... much of the time these terrorists were 'known' or 'watched' yet they were still able to commit atrocities. With that in mind, how much resource bandwidth is given to Joe Blogs. Not a lot I would imagine.

It's a fair point, but we simply don't know how much resource is dedicated to Joe Bloggs. If Senor dhead last night was unknown to the Police and Security services then it could theoretically lead to the justification of more intrusive data collection.
As I said, I have no problem with any measure being used to prevent attacks, indeed I think that it can be too difficult for the Police to gain a RIPA authorisation to surveil a suspect. This is often because of the potential Article 8 human rights violations in relation to collateral surveillance of those around the suspect. Like you say, these people are often they are known to the authorities, yet manage to carry out attacks. That is a ridiculous situation and the appropriate powers should be in place to prevent that from happening. Stronger powers to allow directed surveillance would be far more effective than mass data collection from the entire UK population.

Big Brother has not just suddenly appeared overnight! It first arrived in the 1990s with CCTV and speed cameras. Today, in 2017, UK surveillance is so advanced, a Brummy holidaymaker can land at, say, London Heathrow and 100% of every single step of his journey from planeside to motorway to living room back home in Birmingham can be watched and listened to in real-time by camera, car and phone. Privacy is already gone forever and never coming back.

[dandarez]

Zoobeef said:

Sylvaforever said:

Scrubs said:

Sobering -

So, so sad, my heart goes out to you and all those caught up in this atrocity.

Anyone read that and think it's fake? Who writes like that?
Surprised it doesn't say "please share" at the bottom.

Agree.
Complete bks!
From paramedic to surgeon. A children's surgeon at that too.

Totally deluded person. He should call 999 now.

[LDN]

audidoody said:

I was speaking to an Asian Muslim friend about this. He was expressing his disgust and I asked why the Muslim Council of Great Britain didn't do more to condemn these psychos. He said the problem is coming from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Wahhabis are ploughing millions into the UK Muslim community, building and running mosques. Rich students from Wahhabi families are encouraged to engage with and groom UK Muslim students in the Universities.He also said that if ISIS took me and him prisoner they would kill him first because he is a Shia. The problem is very complex and as long as the UK and the West are in thrall to the Saudis for oil, is not going to change any time soon.

This is so true; our governments are the most hypocritical treacherous fkers... they say all the right things - all the while; doing dirty dealings behind closed doors. It is complex and begs the question; aren't we all complicit...

Aside from the above; religion simply needs to die a death already; it's complete bks, written by mad men and then taken as the word of an imaginative being, that will reward these tragedies. Are religious people so thick? That they can't see the absolute insanity in it all? And then when people talk 'modern' religious folk - what they really mean is; people that don't really believe their own holy book; so are therefore not a member of the faith they proclaim to be; which bizarrely makes them even more stupid than the so-called 'true' followers.

There'll always be war; there'll always be conflict - but the day when fairy tales and gibberish aren't the cause, we will be one step in the right direction.

[Bibbs]

Troubleatmill said:

Can anyone name in the last 30 years the last person to blow themselves and other innocent people up in Europe that were:
a/ Hindu
b/ Sikh
c/ Bhuddist
d/ Amish
e/ Jehovah's Witness
f/ The Wee Free Kirk Of Scotland
g/ Jedi
h/ Ahmadiyya Community ( Muslim's have said that they cannot be called Muslims
i/ Jews
j/ Plymouth Brethren
k/ Sky Pixie What Sky Pixie????

l/ Shia Muslim
j/ Sufi Muslim

It seems to be a primarily Sunni issue.

[BlueHave]

Bibbs said:

Troubleatmill said:

Can anyone name in the last 30 years the last person to blow themselves and other innocent people up in Europe that were:
a/ Hindu
b/ Sikh
c/ Bhuddist
d/ Amish
e/ Jehovah's Witness
f/ The Wee Free Kirk Of Scotland
g/ Jedi
h/ Ahmadiyya Community ( Muslim's have said that they cannot be called Muslims
i/ Jews
j/ Plymouth Brethren
k/ Sky Pixie What Sky Pixie????

l/ Shia Muslim
j/ Sufi Muslim

It seems to be a primarily Sunni issue.

The Guardian in the early morning after the attack was just PC gone bonkers.

Even when it was confirmed as a terrorist attack and suicide bombing people were calling others racist for saying it was comitted by anyone remotely connected or influenced by Muslim or Islamic teachings

[jdw100]

jakesmith said:

Sadly society is full of people who are weak, easily lead / persuaded. Just look at the number of people who get conned out of their life savings in those romance scams etc. You read about them in the papers and think 'who in their right mind could fall for such a scam and send all their savings off to someone they haven't met', or invest in some business or other scam

Well anecdotally the back stories of these terrorists are often characterised by some of the following - disgruntled with society, a misfit, not many friends, their life lacks meaning or is mundane - often this is down to their own background, lack of talent or drive, or circumstances that are within or without their control. If they happen to be weak and gullible as per above, they are ripe for falling under the influence of an evil manipulator, whether at a place of worship, online, in prison etc - ie at an unregulated space (as prisons are at present).

They know what they are doing but are obviously utterly deluded about why they are doing it.

As a horrified member of public it is easy to get drawn down the path of hating not just this toxic ideology, but its associated religion too. That is exactly what the manipulators want though so you play into their hands if you do. They seek to divide society, create hatred and unrest.

Just to add, I am utterly disguised by this act and the whole ideology that spawned it, I am only offering my interpretation of how it comes about, there is zero excuse and people caught being involved in this should receive full life sentences rather thn the 8-10 years they seem to get. If they want to destroy society they should not get to enjoy it again.

I've had some interesting discussions with people that have worked with disaffected youth from Luton.

Looking at the guys that went (or tried to go) to join ISIS. A lot of them were not allowed girlfriends in the UK or to have friends outside the Muslim community. They didn't do well at school and were facing the prospect of life working in a phone shop or similar before marrying someone at the behest of their parents.

They feel that the world is against them and that the UK is unfair and racist, life on the whole is not looking good for them.

Offer some of these guys the chance to travel to a foreign land, dress in cool black paramilitary outfits, get trained in weapons (just like in their computer games) have a pistol in a shoulder holster and fight with people who are their brothers against all that is unfair. They can have a wife that they choose as well, get paid a decent wage and be seen as a hero - well I imagine as lot of disafffected young guys would jump at this kind of opportunity.

Quite a few have taken up this offer, as we know. Some immediately regret it as they have little understanding of what happens in a battle (outside of the computer version) or what it takes to live in combat conditions. However some of them it's been the making of, same as for other guys who join the army and thrive on the discipline etc.

I was told that many of these lads had almost zero understanding of the geopolitics behind their cause beyond 'they're killing our brothers and the West hates Muslims'.

[Pothole]

dandarez said:

Zoobeef said:

Sylvaforever said:

Scrubs said:

Sobering -

So, so sad, my heart goes out to you and all those caught up in this atrocity.

Anyone read that and think it's fake? Who writes like that?
Surprised it doesn't say "please share" at the bottom.

Agree.
Complete bks!
From paramedic to surgeon. A children's surgeon at that too.

Totally deluded person. He should call 999 now.

A surgeon who says "announced dead"? I don't think so.

[Pothole]

227bhp said:

D-Angle said:

rscott said:

227bhp said:

I'm sorry I CBA to wade through all 54 pages in this thread, but how come there are 15 people missing?

I'm assuming some are unconscious and injured in hospital. May well have lost any ID or phone at the time.

It's also possible that they have not been able to identify some of the bodies yet. Only a few have been named so far out of 22 which suggests this process isn't complete.

That's possibly it, but defies belief that 24hrs in they can't identify what they have in front of them?
It kind of points towards the fact that there must be not much left of them at all and that is quite sickening.
Sorry for bringing this up if so.

Kids don't carry ID

[200bhp]

rambo19 said:

The young people killed will have grown up in a multi cultural UK, will hopefully have not a racist bone in their bodies, will probably have friends of all faiths and colour, and this sick lunitic kills them.

Whilst that's a nice idea, many racists get it from their peers and parents. There was a video doing the rounds in recent months of a Milwall fan teaching her grandson to shout racist comments.

Edited by 200bhp on Wednesday 24th May 04:16