Huge Fire In Block Of Flats

[plfrench]

WatchfulEye said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

That's very helpful thanks.

Do you happen to know when the Government made that statement?

22nd June 2017. It was hidden in a footnote to a guidance letter to local authorities explaining what to do if a building safety check fails.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Obviously this clarifies the requirements beyond doubt, but playing devil's advocate, when is a material classed as insulation? Is there a definition of insulation which 12.7 is tied to? All materials are insulants to a greater or lesser degree as usually measured by their Lambda value.

I'd always read 12.7 as applying to any insulation item outside of a masonry cavity and therefore including its use as a component of cladding / SIPS etc, but I could see people thinking that it only applied to separate insulation layers.

[OldGermanHeaps]

Is a silicone type render suitable for high rise? Those seem to perform well in a fire, and they would increase the fire resistance of celotex by keeping the air from reaching it.

[Gareth79]

jmorgan said:

AW111 said:

spaximus said:

The rules are there to protect people and there are enough communal parks and gardens even in London to allow most activities. Do you think the "rich" who own flats thinks "fk it" I will have a barbeque on my balcony? No they understand if they want a garden they pay more for one or do without.

IIRC the cladding fire in Melbourne was started by a balcony barbecue - in a "rich person's" flat.

Interesting to see many a BBQ on a balcony. Wonder how many are there now.

Earlier in the year a friend posted a photo of a block opposite where a tenant had a shed and a BBQ on the balcony. I guessed the shed would have been gone within a few weeks but apparently as of yesterday it was still there, as was the BBQ.

[skwdenyer]

Gareth79 said:

Earlier in the year a friend posted a photo of a block opposite where a tenant had a shed and a BBQ on the balcony. I guessed the shed would have been gone within a few weeks but apparently as of yesterday it was still there, as was the BBQ.

Realistically, flats have to be designed to withstand a BBQ on a balcony.

In the old days, every flat needed some land for residents to use. Then it was accepted that a balcony also counted as "amenity space" allowing all green space to be removed.

So residents use the balconies for the purposes that planning has said they're to be used for - meaning fire protection simply has to keep up.

[jmorgan]

Gareth79 said:

Earlier in the year a friend posted a photo of a block opposite where a tenant had a shed and a BBQ on the balcony. I guessed the shed would have been gone within a few weeks but apparently as of yesterday it was still there, as was the BBQ.

Intrigued now, small shed or big balcony? Suppose he can keep the mower in it......

[Burwood]

Challo said:

BIANCO said:

BlackLabel said:

David Lammy on newsnight again repeating his claims that 'dozens of people jumped out of their flats to their death'. Yet the fire service say only 9 or 10 bodies were found on the ground. He seems to be picking his figures from his arse.

I was amazed by it, his argument because people have been through a traumatic event anything they say most be believed and real was astonishing. The man is a fool of the highest order.

Just saw that clip. Is he mental?? So Police, Fire, Government are lying because he has 'heard' that the more people jumped or died, and that in reality its being covered up.

Exactly like Corbyn and McDonnell. Never admit it but just say enough to get people riled up.

It literally fits with their policy and the contradiction within the party.look at trident representations.

[badboyburt]

Is there a list of the blocks affected ?

[mac96]

jmorgan said:

Gareth79 said:

Earlier in the year a friend posted a photo of a block opposite where a tenant had a shed and a BBQ on the balcony. I guessed the shed would have been gone within a few weeks but apparently as of yesterday it was still there, as was the BBQ.

Intrigued now, small shed or big balcony? Suppose he can keep the mower in it......

It's a known risk though- at least one of the big cladding fires in Saudi was caused by a balcony bbq. And definitely not social housing.

[b0rk]

plfrench said:

Obviously this clarifies the requirements beyond doubt, but playing devil's advocate, when is a material classed as insulation? Is there a definition of insulation which 12.7 is tied to? All materials are insulants to a greater or lesser degree as usually measured by their Lambda value.

I'd always read 12.7 as applying to any insulation item outside of a masonry cavity and therefore including its use as a component of cladding / SIPS etc, but I could see people thinking that it only applied to separate insulation layers.

Then fall back to table A7 "definitions and use of materials of limited combustibility". Remember the manufacturers/importers are claiming such by stating it is tested as class 0.

Valid option choices are:
Item 6, class 0 materials meeting the provisions of Appendix A paragraph 13(a).
Item 8 insulation material in external wall construction referred to in paragraph 12.6

Appendix A para 13.a states "composed throughout of materials of limited combustibility".

As the testing is discovering the core of a PE acm panel burns somewhat vigorously and not really of limited combustibility.

There is if you google it BCA guidance note 18 which clarifies that surface spread of flame testing is not a measure of combustibility for insulating products in facades. The note was published spring 2014.

The problem is that class 0 can be applied to a surface or a material. The new testing regime is clearly testing the material not just the surface.
Diagram 40 of ADB doesn't state if the "class 0" is for the surface or material (product).

BS476 part 11 which would be applicable test standard for defining the product as limited combustibility states "this method is not normally suitable for assessing combinations of materials, such as those that are surface coated, veneered or faced or that contain discrete layers of materials that have been fixed or glued together as liminated."

[mjb1]

TTmonkey said:

It's interesting how some reporting is misleading. The 'missing firedoors' aren't actually missing as in 'they were there but are now gone'. From the reporting it would be easy to assume someone's actually been stealing them, but that's not the case.

A decision was made at some time in the past that the front entry doors of individual flats need not be firedoors. Now someone has changed their minds, and advised the council that they should be fire doors. So the doors need to be changed.

No one has said the sprinkler systems are missing. They just weren't installed due to a decision taken by someone. Same with these 'missing' fire doors.

Is there a law that states front doors to hi rise flats should be fire doors? If there is, someone needs prosecuting for the lack of fire doors. But let's not say they've somehow gone missing as if they were there and are no longer.

It seems pretty obvious that the entrance door to each flat should be a fire door, with high rise buildings designed to compartmentalise flats in terms of fire protection, and the single central stair case being the only exit route so should be protected by fire doors. Even in modest size HMOs, landlords were forced to retrofit fire doors, by comparison it seems crazy to think that a huge block of flats was deemed not to need them.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the building used to have a sprinkler system (maybe just in the communal areas), but it was removed years ago due to vandalism. Can't see any reference for that now though, so maybe that was misinformation?

[markcoznottz]

Apparently planning regs aren't retrospectively applicable is that right? I've read somewhere else that self closing fire doors in tennentable properties are often 'interfered with'

[vonuber]

National grid on the hook too?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/gr...

[kev1974]

vonuber said:

National grid on the hook too?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/gr...

If they are going to put gas up the inside of the building like that, do they not fit some sort of valve at the bottom, that the fire brigade can just shut off as soon as they arrive to deal with something?

(although I'm aware from issues with gas in some flats that I used to live in, the national grid get a bit strict about the process for turning gas back on after it's been off, in case someone's flat has an open gass tap/hob/whatever, that gas could theoretically pour out of when supply is restored)

[Welshbeef]

So given McDonnells murder claim of the govt on the tower block victims when is he going to realise it's the whole govt the whole planning and building regs and likely illegal products being used.


Nasty man saying vile things without the facts.

[Stickyfinger]

Welshbeef said:

So given McDonnells murder claim of the govt on the tower block victims when is he going to realise it's the whole govt the whole planning and building regs and likely illegal products being used.


Nasty man saying vile things without the facts.

He said it to those that only listen to his st....he does not care as it fits with his Plan for a Marxist overthrow of UK politics by installing fear and disrespect of the "state" and other parties.

[Welshbeef]

Stickyfinger said:

He said it to those that only listen to his st....he does not care as it fits with his Plan for a Marxist overthrow of UK politics by installing fear and disrespect of the "state" and other parties.

But he's been an MP for decades he is complicit in it - if there is an it. All parities are in it as they all have been in power and none did anything about it.

[Bristol spark]

kev1974 said:

If they are going to put gas up the inside of the building like that, do they not fit some sort of valve at the bottom, that the fire brigade can just shut off as soon as they arrive to deal with something?

(although I'm aware from issues with gas in some flats that I used to live in, the national grid get a bit strict about the process for turning gas back on after it's been off, in case someone's flat has an open gass tap/hob/whatever, that gas could theoretically pour out of when supply is restored)

I would expect an automatic solonoid valve connected to fire alarm?

[Blue Oval84]

Bristol spark said:

I would expect an automatic solonoid valve connected to fire alarm?

I wouldn't, it would result in people being off gas too often and for too long. If the fire alarm triggered then every flat has to be turned off at the meter and then relit before the supply can be re-instated. If people aren't home that can mean locksmiths etc. dependant on meter location. It could literally take days to be be able to get the whole building back on.

I would say that a manual disconnection valve that the fire brigade could access would be a good call. In the event there really is a fire affecting more than one flat then they can have the power to turn it off without causing mass disruption to all the residents.

[anonymous-user]

Gas appliances cut gas flow if they lose their heat at the flow point, which happens when the supply is cut off.
There should be no issue with safety reinstating the main supply to a building with appliances working properly.

[mjb1]

kev1974 said:

If they are going to put gas up the inside of the building like that, do they not fit some sort of valve at the bottom, that the fire brigade can just shut off as soon as they arrive to deal with something?

(although I'm aware from issues with gas in some flats that I used to live in, the national grid get a bit strict about the process for turning gas back on after it's been off, in case someone's flat has an open gas tap/hob/whatever, that gas could theoretically pour out of when supply is restored)

There's a policy of a 1 hour response time for National Grid to get an engineer out to an uncontrolled gas leak. They get called out to house fires all the time to isolate the gas supply. I'm pretty sure they would have got someone to this incident much quicker, assuming they were notified of the scale of it. I don't know where they put the isolation valve for a block of flats though, could be inside the building, which might have been difficult to access in this situation.