Huge Fire In Block Of Flats
Discussion
Elysium said:
V8 Fettler said:
Elysium said:
V8 Fettler said:
Elysium said:
tleefox said:
Not sure if this has already been discussed but has anyone found the CDM Co-ordinator yet? If I was he / she I'd probably be asking my friends if I could borrow a shotgun about now.
I don't think the CDMC (or Principal Designer as it is now) can be blamed here. They don't specify anything or assess Building Control compliance. In fact they don't even need to visit the site. They just prepare pre-construction information, comment on the Health and Safety Plan, recieve and review designers risk assessments and help to collate the Health and Safety File.
It's a process role more than anything and their focus on operational hazards is usually around maintenance. I wouldn't expect them to be a backstop for incorrectly specified or, as it currently appears might be the case, fraudulently sold materials.
https://www.celotex.co.uk/products/download/5c7388...
I would agree that it should be considered. But think it is pushing it to expect the Principal Designer to be responsible for catching the Architect or design sub-contractors specification errors. They cannot be an expert in all specialisms.
The Principal Designer (was CDM-C) should ensure that design risk assessments are in place, the specialist designers having responsibility for each specific design risk assessment.
Checking that risk assessments are produced and commenting on those is part of the above. However, in this situation it is unrealistic to hope that a Principal Designer would identify a specification failure by an architect or a miss-sold product. They might, but you can't rely on it.
Fire engineers are not engaged on the majority of projects. In my experience are only involved when some aspect of the building makes it difficult to comply with regulations and a more bespoke 'engineered' solution is required:
https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/BS_9999:...
I would suggest that the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower, with it's single escape stair and the addition of gas distribution through compartments, would be one of those situations as the Building Regulations do not directly envisage some of the challenges that could arise.
I think it is reasonable to ask if the Architect or Principal Designer considered the need for a Fire Engineer or discussed it with the client.
There are occasions during the design process where a fire engineer is wheeled out at a late stage to clear up the mess created by others,
Collectingbrass said:
V8 Fettler said:
Elysium said:
tleefox said:
Not sure if this has already been discussed but has anyone found the CDM Co-ordinator yet? If I was he / she I'd probably be asking my friends if I could borrow a shotgun about now.
I don't think the CDMC (or Principal Designer as it is now) can be blamed here. They don't specify anything or assess Building Control compliance. In fact they don't even need to visit the site. They just prepare pre-construction information, comment on the Health and Safety Plan, recieve and review designers risk assessments and help to collate the Health and Safety File.
It's a process role more than anything and their focus on operational hazards is usually around maintenance. I wouldn't expect them to be a backstop for incorrectly specified or, as it currently appears might be the case, fraudulently sold materials.
The Principal Contractor's Safety File and the Designer's fire engineering design should have communicated the fire risk and fire risk management measures required as a result to the building owner and occupier.
Well, that's the theory anyway...
In reality the CDMC role, especially on council & social housing work, is usually done by the Architect or Project Manager / Contract Administrator for additional fee with little extra resource utilised. I know, I sat the multiple choice exam for the Planning Superviosrs guild (or what ever they were & are now) and I've done it in the past alongside PM/CA. I suspect this will change if the application of or adherence to the CDM process is found to be at fault at Grenfell.
98elise said:
John McDonnell is calling it Murder by the Tory council. t
t.
If by chance the fire had happened in one of Camden's "death trap" tower blocks, would it have been murder by the Labour council? I suspect not... t.Seems everyone was using this stuff (public and private sector, and all around the UK), and Grenfell was just the unfortunate place that by chance the first major fire happened.
stevesuk said:
98elise said:
John McDonnell is calling it Murder by the Tory council. tt.
If by chance the fire had happened in one of Camden's "death trap" tower blocks, would it have been murder by the Labour council? I suspect not... t.Seems everyone was using this stuff (public and private sector, and all around the UK), and Grenfell was just the unfortunate place that by chance the first major fire happened.
It's really not a single party political issue and anyone that tries to gain political capital from a disaster like this should be ashamed.
Mr McDonnell, the MP for Hayes and Harlington, was speaking in a panel debate at Glastonbury's Left Field event, chaired by Guardian journalist John Harris.
He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bullst.
He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bulls
t. Gargamel said:
Mr McDonnell, the MP for Hayes and Harlington, was speaking in a panel debate at Glastonbury's Left Field event, chaired by Guardian journalist John Harris.
He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bullst.
Agreed but there might be an argument for fire brigade cuts having a direct impact. We discovered earlier in the thread they stopped doing fire inspections. Something I didn't know. That was no doubt a money saving thing.He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bulls
t. It's a poor choice of words.
Substitute "murdered" with "killed", still feels like a valid point though when you take into account he did qualify it with "decades" vs. "since 2010" and as mentioned the fire cuts might not have had any impact in terms of fighting the fire but may have in terms of inspection/regulation.
Substitute "murdered" with "killed", still feels like a valid point though when you take into account he did qualify it with "decades" vs. "since 2010" and as mentioned the fire cuts might not have had any impact in terms of fighting the fire but may have in terms of inspection/regulation.
Pesty said:
Gargamel said:
Mr McDonnell, the MP for Hayes and Harlington, was speaking in a panel debate at Glastonbury's Left Field event, chaired by Guardian journalist John Harris.
He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bullst.
Agreed but there might be an argument for fire brigade cuts having a direct impact. We discovered earlier in the thread they stopped doing fire inspections. Something I didn't know. That was no doubt a money saving thing.He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bulls
t. "
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families."
Sounds to me like he is blaming politicians of all persuasions, not any particular party.
Why was iI the FB stopped doing fire inspections?
Tory cuts is so ingrained in people because the media keep pumping it out austerity and cuts mentioned all the time when he said it people heard Teresa May is a murderer. The same people that cheered when depp suggested assassination of trump won't connect or vent think possible cts migh have been done under labour.
Gargamel said:
I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers
Cuts to the fire services never help though do they? Fewer, busier, more tired people seldom do a better job.I guess the fire itself was the main evidence that cuts made a difference. If there were routine inspections of tower blocks by firemen this cladding danger would have been caught a long time ago on building #1, not after building #600 and a deadly fire.
It is clearly a false economy to ignore fire, fire inspections should be a basic part of our domestic security.
Pesty said:
Gargamel said:
Mr McDonnell, the MP for Hayes and Harlington, was speaking in a panel debate at Glastonbury's Left Field event, chaired by Guardian journalist John Harris.
He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bullst.
Agreed but there might be an argument for fire brigade cuts having a direct impact. We discovered earlier in the thread they stopped doing fire inspections. Something I didn't know. That was no doubt a money saving thing.He said: "Is democracy working? It didn't work if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower.
"Those families, those individuals - 79 so far and there will be more - were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
"The decision not to build homes and to view housing as only for financial speculation rather than for meeting a basic human need made by politicians over decades murdered those families.
"The decision to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably, and they were political decisions."
A source close to Mr McDonnell confirmed the quotes were accurate.
To be honest, when a confirmed Mao fan like McDonnell starts saying democracy isn't working, you have to be very nervous of him ever coming into a Government.
Also I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers, Have I missed something ? Have they really had a decade of pay freezes, that sounds a little bit like bulls
t. The issue here seems to be one of design/regulations. I don't know how more money for the fire service would have changed that.
Globs said:
Gargamel said:
I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers
Cuts to the fire services never help though do they? Fewer, busier, more tired people seldom do a better job.Finding the balance, particularly in "contingency" areas like fire services, is a tricky one. When you need them you "really" need them. But there is a high cost to maintain People and Equipment when overall fire rates are declining.
I think it rather a cheap shot to simply blame "cuts" or to imply an impact by cuts, without looking at the bigger picture. Do you resource for the average or the peak ?
98elise said:
John McDonnell is calling it Murder by the Tory council. tt.
79 people died due to deliberate cost and corner cutting. t.I fail to see how it's anything else.
The sooner some decision makers are behind bars, the faster the message will go out that making profits by killing people is not going to carry on.
Edited by zarjaz1991 on Monday 26th June 08:53
ph is sadly full of some quite wealthy people who seem quite happy to support the constant battering of the poor in order to protect and further their own already considerable wealth.
This used to extend to merely routine stuff like wages and cuts and job security, but we are now starting to see the ghastly truth....that actually, some such people see the poor as expendable, to the extent that, even when it's clear savage cost cutting and profiteering has cost 79 lives, they are STILL defending such cuts and claiming it's justified.
This used to extend to merely routine stuff like wages and cuts and job security, but we are now starting to see the ghastly truth....that actually, some such people see the poor as expendable, to the extent that, even when it's clear savage cost cutting and profiteering has cost 79 lives, they are STILL defending such cuts and claiming it's justified.
Gargamel said:
Globs said:
Gargamel said:
I have seen absolutely no evidence that cuts to the Fire Service made the slightest bit of difference to the incident at Grenfell Towers
Cuts to the fire services never help though do they? Fewer, busier, more tired people seldom do a better job.Finding the balance, particularly in "contingency" areas like fire services, is a tricky one. When you need them you "really" need them. But there is a high cost to maintain People and Equipment when overall fire rates are declining.
I think it rather a cheap shot to simply blame "cuts" or to imply an impact by cuts, without looking at the bigger picture. Do you resource for the average or the peak ?
Yeah, let's all have a fiddle while Rome burns.
What bigger picture do you need if a 21 storey building, full of people and fully ablaze, isn't sufficient.
zarjaz1991 said:
79 people died due to deliberate cost and corner cutting.
I fail to see how it's anything else.
The sooner some decision makers are behind bars, the faster the message will go out that making profits by killing people is not going to carry on.
No need for an investigation and enquiry then as you have already decided the outcome.I fail to see how it's anything else.
The sooner some decision makers are behind bars, the faster the message will go out that making profits by killing people is not going to carry on.
Edited by zarjaz1991 on Monday 26th June 08:53
zarjaz1991 said:
98elise said:
John McDonnell is calling it Murder by the Tory council. tt.
79 people died due to deliberate cost and corner cutting. t.I fail to see how it's anything else.
The sooner some decision makers are behind bars, the faster the message will go out that making profits by killing people is not going to carry on.
Edited by zarjaz1991 on Monday 26th June 08:53
Since the tower had cladding and insulation added it to it many years after it was built, there appears to have been an attempt to actually improve things and spend money on improving efficiency/aesthetics where these was no essential reason to do so.
Could this not be a case of human error but with underlying good intentions?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff